had a dream last night where I took a uquiz called “what do you serve?” and at first the questions were standard but as the quiz progressed they became more and more highly specific to me personally and the answers became more and more similar and I realised the quiz Knew me and was forcing me into being honest by giving me no other option so I tried to click out but it just went to the next question which was “are you the spider? or are you the web?” and it had an option for each but I didn’t click either so it then turned to a text box and I typed “I think I’m the fly” and the quiz paused for a while and then took me to a results page that said “you serve truth” and the description just read “what you know will kill you but you will die laughing” so like. good morning everyone I guess :/

OP I think the devil visited you in your sleep

“What you know will kill you but you will die laughing” needs to be added to that list of profound statements from unlikely sources.

Wei Wuxian and the nice, broad road: or, part two of why constantly self-sacrificial Wei Wuxian takes bother me so much (part one):

(Long post ahead)

Something that’s very prevalent in self-sacrificial Wei Wuxian takes, or self-sacrificial takes on any character, is that they’re not only self-sacrificial… they’re also an idiot. As in, they don’t think things through, the first impulse they have when they see anyone in danger is to throw themselves in front of them even if there’s a way that means neither have to get hurt, and even if that person’s not in any serious danger at all. And that combines with the common take of self-hatred and extremely low self-worth to form the image of someone who’ll throw themselves recklessly at any danger with no consideration for any consequences or alternate paths, and are almost seeking to throw their life away.

The thing with Wei Wuxian, though, is that he’s not seeking to throw his life away at any given moment. And, more importantly to this meta, he’s clever and he’s capable. If he can find another way out of it, and the majority of the time he probably can, he’ll choose that option. What I’m trying to say is that, if he sees someone being ambushed by a monster, he’ll distract it, fight it himself, and almost always win. He won’t throw himself in front of its claws. 

However, the problem that arises with the story of MDZS is that there is no other way out. The thing endangering those under his protection isn’t some monster he can fight, it’s the corrupt structure of the society itself. Those in power are only able to manipulate its threads by virtue of their birth and therefore status (almost everyone), or in rare cases by using that structure to your own advantage and engaging in very corrupt methods to clear your path to the top (Jin Guangyao). And neither of those are an option for Wei Wuxian, the ‘son of a servant’ who will never join in with that corruption. 

(And he isn’t the only person we see in this situation. We see the same thing with Mianmian, and she can’t oppose this either — the best thing she can do is walk away.)

Wei Wuxian actually summarised his situation very clearly, when talking to Lan Wangji at the Burial Mounds:

Keep reading

Rejected, or simply unexpected? Aka debunking self-sabotaging Wei Wuxian takes, part three

People have talked a bit about this before, but fanon!Wei Wuxian has a peculiar habit of not accepting any help from others. This happens in every single scenario — even when he knows the person offering it is capable, even when it comes at no cost to them, even when not accepting said help would actually hurt other people under his care. This ties into his low self-esteem, low self-worth, believing he’s nothing but a burden to others, believing he doesn’t deserve anything… all of which is decidedly not true for Wei Wuxian in canon. But that point of view is very common in fandom circles, and it plays into a perception that Wei Wuxian doesn’t just find it hard to accept help – he doesn’t believe he deserves nice things in general.

Before we fully get into that, I think there’s one quote that encapsulates Wei Wuxian’s attitude towards help very well:

This is from the scene where Wei Wuxian climbs the tree at Lotus Pier, and is struck by a sudden urge to fall and see if Lan Wangji will catch him, so admittedly, there are a lot of emotions surrounding Lan Wangji himself that could possibly affect this. That’s actually quite likely, considering how flustered he gets every time Lan Wangji does something romantic for him (“you can’t say things like that, Lan Zhan! ”). But I think this moment echoes what’s true throughout the book – Wei Wuxian may not expect help, but when it’s offered, he’ll take it gladly. He doesn’t he sees himself unworthy of it.

Keep reading

Very annoyingly I can't find the post. Some of that is covered in this post about affinity networks, but step-by-step here is how you make friends:

Some tips:

It takes forever! It can be very stressful! I do seriously recommend seeing if you can become friends with people in regularly scheduled group hangouts if you can swing it because it replicates the way we form friendships as children - frequent proximity and increasing intimacy because of time shared together - instead of the "this feels like dating" feeling of trying to make friends with people you see occasionally.

Anyway sorry that's a lot good luck.

This is incredibly helpful, holy shit.

In case it helps anyone else, I’m gonna try to share something I got from a book on social skills (it’s by Daniel Wendler, written by an autistic person who’s learned the rules for autistic people who haven’t yet, highly recommend!) on the flow of conversation.

If you’re like me, maybe you struggle with infodumping and talking too much and forgetting to ask questions. If people don’t share as enthusiastically as you without direct prompting, you’ll accidentally dominate a conversation. Don’t worry, I get it! I thought, I’ll share what I want to share and they’ll share what they want to share, easy—right?

As I’ve had to learn…nope. 95% of neurotypical people (and a lot of neurodivergent people too!) won’t feel comfortable sharing without being invited to.

So, that “natural” back-and-forth of neurotypical conversation goes something like this:

You talk for a little bit. The less you know this person, the shorter your individual “blocks” of conversation should likely be in most cases. So if you’re at small talk stage, you say maybe a sentence or two; if you know them better you can get away with more.

Then it’s on you to pass the ball back. Your job here is to communicate “hey, your turn, I’m interested”, and to give them a cue of what to talk about so they don’t feel stranded and like they have to “come up with” an answer.

Not giving any cues is where awkward silence comes from, and it’ll feel to them like you’re communicating “I want out of this conversation!” So if your conversations with people often awkwardly peter out, check if you’re giving them a cue every time you finish talking!

There are, broadly speaking, two types of cues:

They’re very direct cues, and they’re the easiest for the other person to respond to. That means that the less you know someone, the more you’ll likely rely on invitations (but not exclusively! That makes people feel interrogated. 2-3 questions in a row are fine, after that you might want to throw in an inspiration or two to break it up and be less intimidating—more on that below!)

Try to always keep invitations at the same level of intimacy as the current conversation—don’t talk about the weather and then ask where this stranger grew up and what the weather was like there. These are such direct cues that it’s inherently awkward for the other person to dodge them, so make extra sure your invitations aren’t uncomfortable.

These are more indirect cues, and a little trickier in my experience. Essentially, you want to make sure that you end your bit of the conversation with something that’s deliberately easy to respond to—avoid ending on something that’s very niche that people can’t relate to or that’s very unique to you. If you want to mention something like that, you can, but tack something more general on after as inspiration (or just end on a question). Inspirations are still cues, they’re still meant to give the other person an idea of what to respond with, otherwise the conversation will feel awkward and unwelcoming!

What the other post mentioned re: offering slightly more personal information of your own often falls under this category. For example, if you’re talking about the weather as in the first example, but you mention where you grew up and what the weather was like, that can be inspiration for the other person to also talk about where they’re from!

But, unlike with a question, if they don’t want to share that information they can usually dodge it without having to make it extremely obvious that that’s what they’re doing. They can ask you something else, or shift the topic, and it might not be super subtle but it allows plausible deniability, so they’re not forced to either a) answer a question they don’t want to, or b) expose their discomfort (which is personal in itself!)

The more you know someone, the more you’ll likely automatically rely on inspiration to keep conversation flowing. That’s because you two have context for each other, something you say might easily have a bunch of things they could use as inspiration just because of past conversations you’ve had or things you already know about each other—anything can be a cue if there’s context! But with people you don’t know well, you’re gonna want to be a bit more mindful of it.

Generally, every time you talk in a one-on-one conversation, you want to leave some kind of cue for the other person to respond to!

Don’t worry too much about it though—if they want to talk to you, they’ll deliberately look for inspiration. If you throw the ball badly, they’ll still try to run to catch it anyway! It doesn’t have to be perfect.

But the less you know someone, the less you’ll be willing to “run” (because hey, that’s a lot of mental effort for a stranger who hasn’t proven they’re worth it, for all you know they might be an asshole!) and the more intentional you want to be about giving cues and making the ball as easy as possible to catch.

I’m very much still learning to “practice what I preach” here, but thinking of it this way has helped me enormously, so perhaps it’ll help someone else too!

Fascinated by stories of the - I guess you'd call it the "stolen identity" genre, like, of the Anastasia Romanov variety. But - from both sides.

Your husband has been at war for thirty years. You married when you were teenagers. The man who returns bearing his name looks... plausible, you don't remember his eyes being quite so blue, but it's been thirty years and it's not like you could ever afford to have a portrait painted. He knows your name and the names of your children and your parents, but there are curious gaps in what he remembers. But war does things to the mind. And if he's kinder than you remember? Kind enough that, maybe, you let yourself believe...

No one has ever looked twice at you, since you're just the maid, until the day a revolutionary bomb goes off, blowing a crater in the summer palace. The famously reclusive duchess and the rest of her household lie dead in the rubble. You know that you and she were the same dress size. You know where her jewels are kept. Most importantly, you know the location of the secret tunnel that leads down to the docks, and to a life overseas that would be torturously hard going for a poor maid, especially one suspected as a thief, but a lot more comfortable for a royal in exile...

The old king's most faithful retainer swears this is the heir to the throne, raised in secret and trained to one day step into his father's shoes. As the usurper as dragged off the throne, she screams that the old king's children are all dead, she made sure of it; no one pays her any heed. (Maybe they should have...)

The man in the tavern is buying drinks for the whole bar before he sets sail tomorrow for the far side of the world. He's got it all figured out - a ship of his own, retirement to a tropical paradise when he gets sick of the pirating life. His lip curls as he talks about the stultifying boredom of the aristocratic world he's already left behind. You find out that his parents recently died, and the estate is in the care of his younger sister, who was only six when her brother first left home two decades since. Between the lines, they sound like a good family; they sound like they love him, the way your family never did. Your heart aches. He shows you portraits, letters, before shoving them carelessly back in his coat pocket. They would be so easy to lift...

It's a surprisingly common concept and I just love it. It's The Return of Martin Guerre; it's multiple 90s romcoms; Agatha Christie pulls it half a dozen times. Sooner or later, it crops up in fanfic for just about any fandom with a royal or aristocratic main character.

And I can see why, because there's so much richness to it. From the outside, it can be anything from a horror story to an unlikely love story; from the perspective of the person pulling off the con, a heist movie or a tragedy or a heartwarming tale of found family. And then there are the longer-term implications: What happens if you wear a mask so long that it becomes who you are? What happens if you come to love the "replacement" to the point where you don't want to find out the truth? What is it like to uncover such a deception a century down the line, to find out that your great-grandfather... wasn't?

Just. Identity stories, man. <3

pretty disappointed with the way 7s have translated wwx's iconic 'right or wrong' speech.

"Thank you for keeping me company today, and thank you for telling me about my shijie's wedding,” Wei Wuxian said slowly. “But—right or wrong, the decision is my own. It doesn't matter what others think of those decisions. I will bear the consequences of my actions, whether they be good or ill. I know what I should do. And I believe everything is still within my ability to control."

it has very basic language & tone, it doesn't flow smoothly at all. wwx's remarks here are supposed to sound poetic.

'不過, 是非在己, 毀譽由人, 得失不論。該怎麼做,我自己心裡有數。我也相信我自己控制得住。'

the first sentence even uses that classic 4 character structure (this is what lwj's speech patterns are known for).

here's exr's translation for comparison. it reads far more smoothly and rhythmically, as do the other fan translations further down

‘Wei WuXian spoke slowly, “Thank you for keeping me company today. Thank you for telling me the news about my shijie’s marriage too. But, let the self judge the right and the wrong, let others decide to praise or to blame, let gains and losses remain uncommented on. I, too, know what I should and shouldn’t do. I believe that I’ll be able to control it as well.”’

i also think 7s' version obfuscates the meaning, 'But—right or wrong, the decision is my own. It doesn't matter what others think of those decisions. I will bear the consequences of my actions, whether they be good or ill.'

here is how some others have translated the same phrase

'Right and wrong lies within oneself; let others speak of ruin or glory; pay no mind to gains or losses.' (spicychickenyang)

'However, right and wrong is a personal issue*. Leave the slander to others. Let’s not talk about merits and demerits.'

*personal issue: WWX actually said ‘right and wrong are inside the self’' (translation + footnote from qinghe-nie)

wwx is explaining his moral philosophy, that people should decide for themselves what right and wrong is, and not factor what they gain or lose into moral decisions. this is critical to the themes of mob mentality, centralised authority and corruption in mdzs.

in 7s' version, it could be read as 'i make my own decisions, right or wrong is irrelevant.' it's ambiguous, but i don't know why they've chosen to add ambiguity that isn't present in the original text.

7s also added words/phrases that do not reflect the original text. the line 'I will bear the consequences of my actions' is entirely their own invention. the chinese phrase is '得失不論' 得失 = gains and losses, 不論 = do not speak of. additionally, wwx says 'my decisions,' 'my actions,' 'i will bear' — in 7s it comes across as if he's just talking about himself & his specific circumstance, rather than being a speech about his stance on morality in general.

finally, this line 'And I believe everything is still within my ability to control."' just isn't accurate. specifically, wwx does not say everything is within his ability to control, he says he believes he'll be able to control himself. the chinese line is '我也相信我自己控制得住。'我自己 = myself. wwx said this specifically in response to lwj asking if he will be able to control his cultivation earlier on.

i know people are gonna think, 'translation is nuanced, poetic language is hard to translate!' well, the fan translators did a pretty good job of it, why is it so hard for a professional publishing company to do the same?? why did 7s choose to add words/phrases and punctuation that aren't even present in the original text, making it disjointed and rambly? why did they ignore context and add meanings that aren't even in the original text?

i feel like people take the whole ‘wwx was super annoying towards lwj as a teenager’ and just run with it, forgetting about how it also comes with the ‘but only because lwj otherwise refuses to give him attention’. 

#i’m tempted to do a proper post on this but for now pls accept this#it’s a game that wwx plays - lwj refuses to pay attention to me. okay what do i need to do so he *does* pay attention to me? how far do i#need to go? what is he willing to put up with before he gives in and acknowledges that im in the room with him? how much do i need to do so#that he will look at me but not so much that he becomes furious at me and refuses to ever let me near him again?#and then he goes down his crooked path and that’s the too much! thats the part where wwx has done too much and lwj wont let wwx near him#so to speak#by lwj’s own actions and words and by wwx’s understanding of himself and of lwj they can never stand side by side. not now and not ever.#and then wwx comes back from the dead and amidst his attempts to get free and hide his identity he keeps playing the same game he used to#play as the innocent & carefree teenager - bc lwj doesnt know who he is so there’s none of that baggage that they’d had that wwx had died w/#but then lwj *does* know who he is and he *does* pay wwx attention#and it honestly throws wwx so off balance bc this isnt how he remembered them - how he remembered lwj - but then he adapts and they play new#games and lwj promises that he’s always paying attention to wwx now and it’s true#wwx chatters on deep into the night and even though he expected lwj to go to sleep when it hit 9pm he can still feel lwj’s eyes on him#he occasionally throws out a question to lwj. ‘dont you think so lan zhan?’ ‘do you agree with me?’ ‘what do you think?’ ‘have you seen#anything like this before?’ and wwx never expects a response but lwj does respond. it may not be a lot. maybe a single mn or whatever but he#*always* responds now and wwx will never stop being delighted that lan zhan is paying attention to him#and lwj will never stop being delighted that he’s able to give wwx his full attention#and i love them both so much ahhhhhh tags from OP this is amazing

#yessss wwx is very deliberate in how he acts#novel makes it clear through narration he’s a tricky person#like everyone things he means it about eating the rabbits#i keep wanting to shake my screen and go NO#because he was briar patching that#he was teasing and poking and doing a whole routine to get lwj to accept the rabbits

(via @lovepsychothefirst)

It always annoys me how little credit the fandom gives to WWX, lmao. Just because he doesn’t spell out exactly why he’s doing what he’s doing doesn’t mean he’s doing things impulsively and randomly, and idk why people assume that he is. In fact, I think the fact that WWX is as misunderstood by fandom as he is is extremely weird

#like #it’s spelled out for you that this man is a genius #one of the best cultivators of his generation #that he has a very very analytical mind #and then you think that he’s doing things randomly and things are randomly working out for him? #He’s a calculated person #he just has fun while he does it [via thejhambs]

yes! exactly! we’re told time and time again that wwx is a genius. from the get-go he’s ranked fourth place on the desirable young bachelors list (a list which would have likely been determined by mastery of the six arts and the bachelor’s status, the latter of which wwx didn’t really have). he’s the head disciple of a major sect, a position where he would have to be a) a good leader and b) a good teacher. he created talismans and revolutionised the cultivation world in a way that no one else had managed to do in the thirteen years he was dead. he was the first person to ever escape the burial mounds and the inventor of demonic cultivation, a practise that no one else was really able to safely master or add onto while he was dead, too.

even ignoring the fact that he’s an academic genius, we see how good wwx is in social situations time and time again. i don’t like the negative connotations of saying that wwx manipulated lwj into taking the bunnies but he did! and he straight up plotted out the porn prank. it wasn’t him just finding a porn book and going yknow what and then heading off to prank lwj. he had planned for the prank, taken into consideration that lwj would be carrying his sword with him, and even purposefully antagonised lwj into destroying any evidence of what he’d done. so yeah, he’s a very calculating person and he just happens to use it to prank people with porn. 

but even in more serious circumstances wwx will make calculated decisions.  when he joined the sunshot campaign, his interactions with everyone he speaks to are so carefully played so as to divert attention from the holes in his fragile lies and excuses. yes, he did become arrogant, but wwx was also playing that up bc it kept people from looking too closely. and that’s why he was able to take his secrets to grave and no one suspected anything! he was able to balance his own poor health, the horrors of battle and everything he had suffered through, being surrounded by people who wanted him dead (both wens and allies alike) and manage to convince people that him using demonic cultivation was due to him being arrogant and/or wanting to be powerful. 

Yes yes yes! And this also goes for “wwx never thinks before he acts” or “wwx is just a troublemaker who wants attention”. He’s not!Especially in the book. Even his reaction to Lqr was only becasue he realized Lqr was trying to deliberately use Lwj as an an example and try to humble Wwx. Wwx saw that and deliberately pokes Lqr at exactly the right places, when he’s sent out of the room, it’s on his own terms. His punching Jzx the second time was because he saw Jc was going to punch him and he knew that would be bad. His pushing Lwj outside was both a challenge and a test. And its very important because Lwj’s the first person to probably pass it, wwx’s shocked that lwj is indeed as righteous as he claims. Like this was a moment!

People just don’t want to admit that Wwx was a smart well liked teenager. But he was! People were gathering in his rooms everynight. Women went out of their way to approach him; he’s so charming he got information out of very wary civilians on the road to Yi City. People *like* him. Which is what makes the turn so much more interesting and also underlines the fickle nature of crowds and people. People keep writing wwx as the annoying guy in the group of friends that they put up with when it’s the other way around, people put up eachother because they had wwx in common.

And don’t get me started on how people underestimate his powers, or downplay his love for the sword, or insist he’s less talented at it and prefers talismans. No no, he enjoys all of it. And he was Lwj’s equal at the sword! I don’t get why people keep writing as though he’s not. They are well matched! Extremely well matched, that’s what sparks their interest in the first place. Anyway I could keep going.

it's posts like these that make me go "hmm I should make up a characterization meta tag or a characterization reference tag"

and then I might as well add a worldbuilding tag too

but at this point I just have too much volume to backtag :')

Underdiscussed MDZS topic: I think it has been broadly concluded that Wen Ning is 1) Best Boy and 2) unduly influenced by Wei Wuxian since his fierce corpse transformation, causing him to murder Jin Zixuan in a situation where he otherwise would not have. It would appear that most of the cultivation world has concluded the same thing, though they’re probably pretty on the fence about #1. 

Wen Ning’s intro in the novel is as a corpse puppet. Countless accusations fly around regarding his free will and Wei Wuxian’s own cruel denial of it during his darkest times. Our perception as readers is often split between that of the cultivation world at large and that of the people who know and have FEELINGS about the main characters, and the schism between those perceptions is made most obvious regarding the Burial Mounds period. Especially because of how little exposition the novel provides about it - and how unwilling Wei Wuxian is to speak of it later.

Public perspective: Wen Ning is Wei Wuxian’s puppet, unable to form his own thoughts and feelings, and is the vessel of Wei Wuxian’s hatred for the world. He was brought back to life to be a weapon, and the Wens, as evil people fleeing their reckoning, approve of these evil arts.

Private perspective: Wei Wuxian was trying to collect the shards of many broken lives, desperately trying to bring a sense of good into a deeply twisted situation, and created a very complicated outcome. He brought a brother back to his sister and gave Wen Ning an opportunity to live again, albeit in an upsetting way, and respected his autonomy as best he could while their lives crumbled around them. Wen Ning himself took joy in protecting his family for what little time they had left, and was grateful for the comfort provided to his sister despite having…complex repressed feelings about being a corpse. He was happy to see Wei Wuxian again. Wen Ning has free will and Wei Wuxian appears to really value not even attempting to overtake that.

Audience perspective: Wen Ning was brought back to life because of his sister’s request and Wei Wuxian’s desire to repay a debt/unwillingness to accept failure without consideration for his own desires. His existence is a perversion of the natural order, but his subservient nature and ties to Wei Wuxian cause him to make the best of a bad situation. He’s a good person, and has maintained an outwardly positive perspective, but cannot cry any longer, cannot have meaningful connections outside of the Wens, and is, in a way, cursed. Worse: he is vulnerable to Wei Wuxian’s control superseding his own desires, especially regarding Wei Wuxian losing control of the resentful energy that powers them both. In this, Wen Ning is a victim of Wei Wuxian’s greatest lapse. 

Wei Wuxian’s perspective is quite similar to the audience’s, as is often the case in the novel. Perhaps it is due to his bad memory, perhaps it is a response to trauma, but Wei Wuxian often internalizes his public persona in times of great stress or conflict that is truly irresolvable. He simply forgets many of the little things that form a dissonant image…or never speaks of them again, preferring to move on with his life.  (Or his death. His death is such a mysterious thing in the novel it drives me nuts)

The thing about the audience perspective, though, is that it is as flawed as the other perspectives. In particular: Wen Ning clearly disagrees with it. Arguments can be made for him protecting Wei Wuxian from his own actions, piggybacking on Wen Ning’s meek and mild attitude…but the novel proves, time and again, that this is a deeply flawed approach to Wen Ning’s character. Out of the entire cast, Wen Ning is second only to Lan Wangji in his directness regarding the truth or moral core of a situation. He confronted Jiang Cheng about his golden core, despite being sworn to secrecy. He rescued Wei Wuxian despite having minimal contact with him. He stood up to his sister about this reckless rescue. He turned his back on the Wen sect!!!! He came back as a FIERCE CORPSE!!!! He willingly turned himself in when it was clear that Wei Wuxian was going to die for them all!!!!! When contrasted with the actions of the rest of the main cast, it’s obvious he’s got a spine of steel. He’s polite, he was raised to stay out of the way and to not be a liability to his sister, but he’s got even more decisiveness than her underneath it all when it comes to relationships he values. Wen Ning is clever, emotionally literate, and unafraid of facing the truth. Even Wei Wuxian forgets this at times, and is often embarrassed about underestimating Wen Ning’s character. 

This is important. 

Wen Ning doesn’t blame Wei Wuxian for Qiongqi Path. He does blame himself, though, and his regrets are largely focused on how the situation deteriorated. He isn’t as horrified by the murder he’s committed. 

Key to this: Wei Wuxian admits, in that oblique way of his, that Wen Ning killed Jin Zixuan because Wei Wuxian saw him as an enemy and Wen Ning is attuned to his emotions. Not his orders, not his control, not his resentful energy, but his emotions. 

Losing control was losing the ability to hold back the resentment that Wen Ning died with. And what does Wei Wuxian and most of the cultivation world skim over regarding this resentment? Wen Ning died on Qiongqi Path. He was killed by Jins.

The same people, wearing the same colours, who attacked the man Wen Ning is now tasked with guarding. 

Wen Ning had his own reasons for losing control that are broadly independent of Wei Wuxian, but acknowledging those reasons requires 1) acknowledging Wen Ning as his own person and 2) acknowledging that, as a person, he may have homicidal inclinations towards that people that murdered his sect, his clan, his direct family, and himself. The Wens, both victims and victimizers is the narrative, might hold some desire for retribution in their heart that echoes that of the Sunshot Campaign members. And that’s hard, because that’s complicated - no clear villains or victors here.

MXTX plays with narrative like this a lot in MDZS. It’s subtle at times, obvious at others, but it’s a consistent theme of the novel. It’s also one that a lot of discourse seems to miss. 

If the character perspectives isn’t enough support for you, though, there’s also the world-building context to look at. According to legend, Qiongqi Path is where the founder of the Qishan Wen Clan, Wen Mao, rose to fame in just one battle. Hundreds of years before the novel’s beginning, he fought a divine beast for eighty-one days and ultimately claimed its life. The divine beast was the Qiongqi, a beast of chaos known to punish the good and encourage the evil, devouring the loyal and the righteous while awarding the malicious. Of course, many of the Wen clan’s legends can be looked at with suspicion. But Qiongqi Path was already a graveyard. It’s a tainted place, with tainted memories for the people involved, firmly seated in a legend that reeks of the inevitability of somebody dying there that day, regardless of one man’s ability to maintain control of another. 

There are a lot of takes and tropes that bother me in the MDZS fandom, but don’t really bother me outside of it, and I’ve been wondering why that is for a while now. And I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s because of the way the MDZS universe, is portrayed, and the roles it plays in the story, when compared to those other pieces of media.

Because one thing I’ve noticed in fandoms I’m in is that people like having hope. Maybe bad things happened to the characters, yes, but surely there are lots of good people out there – maybe if something happens so that the abused character is brought up by them instead, things will turn out well! Or maybe if those people see what’s really happening with the misunderstood protagonist, everything will be ok!  

And it’s one thing to believe humanity is inherently good, or is inherently anything. And it’s definitely understandable that people want to believe that about humanity in a fictional universe, which can often function as a form of escapism But the thing with fictional universes is that they generally skew on one side of the spectrum, whether that side agrees with those views, or not. Pessimistic or optimistic, hopeful or hopeless.

And MDZS… is not an hopeful universe.

Now, that’s not saying there aren’t good people in it, or that we’re left with no possibility things could change for the better – the Juniors precisely embody that  hope! And a lot of the established characters are good people, it’s not saying it’s impossible. But generally, the view on society and societal structures, and the people inhabiting it from the top to the bottom, tends to be quite cynical. For evidence, just look at how all the clans reacted to the situation with Wei Wuxian and the Wen remnants, and how the one person who spoke up about it, Mianmian, was treated. I don’t think MDZS is making a case about how all leaders are corrupt, though some are, but it is making one about how most people will blindly follow the people in power and turn on anyone who opposes that, and how that can lead to mob mentality and false gossip and danger if that leader is corrupt. The fault and the problem is with the structures themselves. 

And because of that, it’s impossible to eliminate one thing that’s the problem. There’s no one person behind the state of the world, though some definitely take advantage of it, so you can’t get rid of Y factor in Z character’s life and make everything all right. For example, there are a lot of stories where Wei Wuxian is raised by the Lans or the Nies, and that somehow makes everything alright. And maybe something similar would work in other fandoms, where there is one nation or group of people that’s the problem – but the corruption here is society-deep. That would not solve the problem – the classism, the mob mentality, the dehumanisation and so on – because that’s how the world is going to be. Likewise, I also see AUs where people found out what the situation really was at the Burial Mounds and everyone went to band against the evil Jin Sect and help Wei Wuxian. But the Jins weren’t the only sect responsible, and if the sects didn’t know the situation before (though some people definitely did), they definitely knew after the siege – who threw the Wen remnants’ bodies into the Blood Pool, again? And that didn’t change their attitude at all. Because the Wens aren’t seen as human (there’s a reason they’re called Wen-dogs), they’re seen as less than that, and they’re seen as not deserving of life. Being ‘innocent’ doesn’t change that. 

Just because a similar premise works in other fandoms, where maybe there is one main thing that’s the problem, doesn’t mean it’ll work in all of them. And it certainly won’t here.

Again, the one person who spoke up in favour of Wei Wuxian protecting the Wens because maybe there was more to it? Ostracised. And in MDZS, people like Mianmian are most definitely presented as the exception, not the norm.

The MDZS world is not kind. And too much of the plot hinges on that for it to be easily changed.

(…And I do wonder if this thinking is a factor in people thinking Wei Wuxian rejects help too, or is bad at dealing with the situation involving the Wens, or the Golden Core, or anything else. Because if the world was kind, surely there wouldn’t be a reason not to ask for support, right? And because of that, people mistake his very sensible (and accurate) view of the clans in power for low self-esteem and being simple unwilling to ask.)

…This isn’t a condemnation of fix-its in MDZS. If you want to write one, great! But understand that in the universe you’re writing about, you can’t remove simply one thing, or one clan, or one person, and make everything ok. A story written with a premise like alternate clan adoption or people finding out what’s actually happening can be great, if you remember the constraints of the universe you’re working within.

Some universes are hopeful, others are not. And you can’t have the same trope working exactly the same way in two on different ends of the spectrum.

This is a really good post and I largely agree. At first I was just going to tag but I have a lot of thoughts and tags just were not cutting it.

I also hate fix it fics in this fandom because I agree that they they think the problem is if the character did just this or this differently things would be fundamentally changed. But as you said the problem was much larger. It wasn’t one evil Clan it was a larger societal problem. I don’t necessarily think all the Clans were evil either but mob mentality, the need for a common enemy, a false sense of righteousness can make groups of people do evil things. I don’t even think it was so much about knowing or not knowing the Wens were innocent. It was more about being so convinced they were right that they were fighting a great evil.

Standing against the crowd like Wei Wuxian did to do the right thing takes extreme courage and a very strong sense of true morality. Lan Wangji and Mianmian are also characters that stand against the crowd as you say but Wei Wuxian is the true embodiment of this.

In the end of the book you can say the Clans have not really changed or learned anything they just moved onto a new target. But I am not really sure I think MDZS is completely cynical despite all this. I think it’s more a realistic.

The book as you said does give us hope with the next generation. But there is another thing too.

In the early part of the novel Wei Wuxian thinks he completely failed

Despite this he tries to move forward positively in his new life.

But in the end it’s revealed Wen Yuan is still alive. Wei Wuxian couldn’t save the Wens and people did end up dying but his actions (with the help of Lan Wangji) still saved someone. And Wen Yuan grew to to be a fine young man that is part of that next more hopeful generation. We also learned Mianmian who he also saved is a rouge cultivator with a family of her own. So in the end Wei Wuxian’s didn’t cause large societal change. He couldn’t save everyone. But he still saved Lan Sizhui and Mianmian.

I know I got on a tangent away from fix it fics. I think these fics not only misunderstand that the larger issues of the novel can’t so easily be fixed but they misunderstand the themes of the novel in the first place. The whole point is doing the right thing isn’t always easy. There isn’t one thing that could have fixed everything. And sometimes when doing the right thing you may still fail but I don’t think the novel is saying you should not try. But this is the point to me is where MDZS is more realistic but hopeful than cynical . It’s not about a huge societal change, or being able to save everyone but Wei Wuxian’s actions still saved two very good people. The point to me isn’t about what went wrong but that what Wei Wuxian did was right.

Feel free to hijack my post, this is a great addition!

(For clarification, I don’t think it’s cynical about the world in general, but the way it tends to view people in general – and by that I mean the people who aren’t characters, but simply exist without us knowing anything about them – is much more on the critical side of the spectrum than the optimistic one. But yes, a big part of the message is to try and do the right thing regardless, no matter if you fail!)

Hmm yeah this does a great job of summing up something really important about MDZS and I have lots of thoughts- let’s see if I’ve had enough caffeine to express them coherently or not! I think this is why the ‘Wei Wuxian’s tragic flaw is hubris/not asking for help/not trusting LWJ etc etc’ takes rub me up the wrong way so. Because I don’t think the tragedy of MDZS is rooted in individual character flaws (although some characters’ actions are part of it). The tragedy is the systemic issues that mean even a world ostensibly about fighting evil and protecting the weak from supernatural threats is actually more concerned about saving face, making personal gains and ceding control over to the powerful and mob mentality than taking care to do good and ensure people are cared for. The tragedy is that someone *was* doing the right thing, and got utterly reviled, demonised and died because of it, while the socially powerful, self-interested people prospered. It’s not a case of missed opportunities, misunderstandings or fatal character flaws inevitably leading to the worst outcome (although the romance narrative during WWX’s first life features a lot of these, which have to be intentionally addressed by both of Wangxian for them to finally get together). The tragedy is that such injustices- the treatment of the Wen remnants, the villanisation of WWX, the machinations of the Jins, the general background state of the cultivation world that means LWJ simply going out and helping where the need is greatest is seen as exceptional, the classism and devaluation of people’s lives- take place even though our main characters do the right thing. Their sacrifices, morality and the incredible skill they possess are not enough to change all of this- which is painful, and so sad.

The tragedy is systemic but the hope comes through with the individual impact and changes that the main characters bring about, and the ripple effects they bring. Lan Sizhui and MianMian are alive, well and able to bring safety and happiness to those around them, and no price can be put on how valuable that is. The old guard of cultivation society may be just as quick to jump on the bandwagon but the juniors realise the senior they’ve come to love is the bogeyman of the cultivation world and rightly question their received narratives, standing up for what they believe to be right instead of letting mob mentality dictate. LWJ and WWX do manage to work out the mystery and work out the issues between themselves, and by engaging us with the romance, the mystery and the resolution of A-Yuan’s storyline the novel really wants to highlight how important all these elements are. WWX’s (and LWJ’s) actions had impact, even if they didn’t manage to change everything about all of society, and my reading of the novel is that it whole-heartedly concludes that their actions were still worth taking, were still important, despite that.

Fix-it fics can be fun but I do often find myself having to suspend my disbelief about what it is that actually needs to be fixed. Wangxian is such a juicy mess of misunderstandings on all sides that there’s a whole plethora of 'what ifs’ that could enable it to go in different directions earlier, but untangling their relationship doesn’t do anything to change the backdrop of the society they’re part of, and they’re inevitably going to come into conflict with it.

I wonder if it’s because in both fantasy (admittedly I’ve got very Euro-centric ideas of this, it might not be a feature of Chinese fantasy) and romance there’s so often the idea that the great (or skilled, or chosen) hero or a great love can overcome all obstacles, and we find it so cathartic to read that of course if things were just right then good will prevail and problems will be solved. It’s a much more realistic, but also more applicable and helpful, suggestion that doing good and standing up for what you believe to be right will not always give you the results you hope for but it is still vitally important, still has impact and worth even if you can’t make everything right however much you try or however skilled you are as one person. I like being able to fight off the evil overlord and save the world as much as the next voracious fantasy reader, but MDZS’s conclusion that it is worth standing up for what you believe to be right even when the world around you actively works against that feels much more relevant to living and figuring out how to take sustainable action in the messy and often demoralising world we’re part of.

There are a lot of takes and tropes that bother me in the MDZS fandom, but don’t really bother me outside of it, and I’ve been wondering why that is for a while now. And I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s because of the way the MDZS universe, is portrayed, and the roles it plays in the story, when compared to those other pieces of media.

Because one thing I’ve noticed in fandoms I’m in is that people like having hope. Maybe bad things happened to the characters, yes, but surely there are lots of good people out there – maybe if something happens so that the abused character is brought up by them instead, things will turn out well! Or maybe if those people see what’s really happening with the misunderstood protagonist, everything will be ok!  

And it’s one thing to believe humanity is inherently good, or is inherently anything. And it’s definitely understandable that people want to believe that about humanity in a fictional universe, which can often function as a form of escapism But the thing with fictional universes is that they generally skew on one side of the spectrum, whether that side agrees with those views, or not. Pessimistic or optimistic, hopeful or hopeless.

And MDZS… is not an hopeful universe.

Now, that’s not saying there aren’t good people in it, or that we’re left with no possibility things could change for the better – the Juniors precisely embody that  hope! And a lot of the established characters are good people, it’s not saying it’s impossible. But generally, the view on society and societal structures, and the people inhabiting it from the top to the bottom, tends to be quite cynical. For evidence, just look at how all the clans reacted to the situation with Wei Wuxian and the Wen remnants, and how the one person who spoke up about it, Mianmian, was treated. I don’t think MDZS is making a case about how all leaders are corrupt, though some are, but it is making one about how most people will blindly follow the people in power and turn on anyone who opposes that, and how that can lead to mob mentality and false gossip and danger if that leader is corrupt. The fault and the problem is with the structures themselves. 

And because of that, it’s impossible to eliminate one thing that’s the problem. There’s no one person behind the state of the world, though some definitely take advantage of it, so you can’t get rid of Y factor in Z character’s life and make everything all right. For example, there are a lot of stories where Wei Wuxian is raised by the Lans or the Nies, and that somehow makes everything alright. And maybe something similar would work in other fandoms, where there is one nation or group of people that’s the problem – but the corruption here is society-deep. That would not solve the problem – the classism, the mob mentality, the dehumanisation and so on – because that’s how the world is going to be. Likewise, I also see AUs where people found out what the situation really was at the Burial Mounds and everyone went to band against the evil Jin Sect and help Wei Wuxian. But the Jins weren’t the only sect responsible, and if the sects didn’t know the situation before (though some people definitely did), they definitely knew after the siege – who threw the Wen remnants’ bodies into the Blood Pool, again? And that didn’t change their attitude at all. Because the Wens aren’t seen as human (there’s a reason they’re called Wen-dogs), they’re seen as less than that, and they’re seen as not deserving of life. Being ‘innocent’ doesn’t change that. 

Just because a similar premise works in other fandoms, where maybe there is one main thing that’s the problem, doesn’t mean it’ll work in all of them. And it certainly won’t here.

Again, the one person who spoke up in favour of Wei Wuxian protecting the Wens because maybe there was more to it? Ostracised. And in MDZS, people like Mianmian are most definitely presented as the exception, not the norm.

The MDZS world is not kind. And too much of the plot hinges on that for it to be easily changed.

(…And I do wonder if this thinking is a factor in people thinking Wei Wuxian rejects help too, or is bad at dealing with the situation involving the Wens, or the Golden Core, or anything else. Because if the world was kind, surely there wouldn’t be a reason not to ask for support, right? And because of that, people mistake his very sensible (and accurate) view of the clans in power for low self-esteem and being simple unwilling to ask.)

…This isn’t a condemnation of fix-its in MDZS. If you want to write one, great! But understand that in the universe you’re writing about, you can’t remove simply one thing, or one clan, or one person, and make everything ok. A story written with a premise like alternate clan adoption or people finding out what’s actually happening can be great, if you remember the constraints of the universe you’re working within.

Some universes are hopeful, others are not. And you can’t have the same trope working exactly the same way in two on different ends of the spectrum.

Awesome tags from @tenthousandyearsx​:

What’s striking to me about comparing the Final Fantasy VII remake is with its source material is that in the original, Aerith and Tifa are honestly kind of dicks to each other a lot of the time, while their relationship in the remake more closely resembles that of their popular fanfic counterparts, and I legitimately cannot tell whether it’s because Square’s writers have finally pulled their heads out of their collective ass about writing interactions between adult women, or whether they’re just trying to make the OT3 shippers explode.

They were friends in the original too?

They tend to hang out with each other whenever the party splits up even:

Basically, the notion that they were dicks to each other is more the stuff of fanfic than the lean in to showing their friendship is.

Uh, yeah. They were never dicks to each other. There’s a moment of awkwardness over Cloud when they first meet which they quickly get over and bond more or less straight away. Aerith accidentally mentions her date with Cloud at Shinra HQ not knowing Tifa is there which Tifa reacts to and immediately gets over and starts asking Aerith sincerely about herself. The rest of the time they’re shown to be close, preferentially choose to hang out together when the party splits up, confer with each other about other party members, tease other party members as a team, etc. They’re finishing each other’s sentences within minutes of meeting each other. Tifa is devastated by Aerith’s death and speaks to her optimism and resilience later in the game:

The perception that they dislike or are dicks to each other just isn’t true, at most there are a few moments of awkwardness or accidental hurt feelings over Cloud which are immediately brushed off but the overwhelming sense is of a genuine friendship between them.

Yeah, the “dicks to each other” take is just bad fanon.

PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE

From another article i read today 😭

alt link

he wasn’t even there to be a contestant he joined the crew as a CHINESE TEACHER but the directors noticed his good looks and begged him to compete. poor guy made it to the finals and if he had been one of the winners he would have been contractually forced to be in a boy band whether he wanted to or not

this is the closest any human being has ever come to actually being sold to One Direction

I love me a pseudo-historical arranged marriage au but it always nudges my suspension of disbelief when the author has to dance around the implicit expectation that an arranged marriage should lead to children, which a cis gay couple can't provide.

I know for a lot of people that's irrelevant to what they want from an Arranged Marriage plot, but personally I like playing in the weird and uncomfortable implications.

So, I've been thinking about how you would justify an obviously barren marriage in That Kind of fantasy world, and I thought it'd be interesting if gay marriage in Ye Old Fantasy Land was a form of soft disinheritance/abdication.

Like, "Oh, God, I don't want to be in this position of power please just find me a boy to marry", or, "I know you should inherit after you father passes but as your stepmother/legal guardian I think it'd make more sense if my kids got everything, so maybe consider lesbianism?", or "Look, we both know neither of our families has enough money to support that many grandkids, so let's just pair some spares and save both our treasuries the trouble".

Obviously this brings in some very different dynamics that I know not everyone would be pinged by, but I just think it'd be neat.

This is actually a really cool variant solution to a real historical problem, wherein either primogeniture or other profoundly shitty customs led to wealthy parents having insufficient resources to provide for all of their children in a manner consistent with their station.

Historically, the Church and its widespread monastic structure functioned as a dumping ground for second/third/etc sons and all the daughters one can't afford to marry off adequately, with the military eventually picking up the slack for the former post-Reformation to the point where it's been argued that the need for something to occupy these dispossessed sons played a role in Europe's ongoing conflicts between its nations and the eventual push of imperialism and colonization over the rest of the world.

In a world where homosexuality were more accepted, it would offer a new option: spare a comparatively-small outlay of resources from the main family fortune to equip a house and accoutrements, which would be reabsorbed into the family as a return inheritance in a few decades, and contract a marriage which would be deliberately unable to produce legitimate offspring.

You get the advantages of creating marital ties with another wealthy family, the people married therein have a spouse and the status achievements that go with marriage, and the risk that your child goes off and marries someone unsuitable or inconvenient is removed entirely, as is the risk that they could marry someone and have legitimate, inheritance-claiming children with them. Sure, they can have affairs and thus get children if they're married to a same-sex spouse, but those children cannot be passed off as legitimate issue of the marriage, and so they pose less of a threat to the the main body of the family's wealth.

And, thus: perfectly reasonable reason why your pseudohistorical fictional characters can find themselves in a same-sex arranged marriage!

"Nicholas, we've arranged for you to marry Eric, in the neighboring kingdom."

"But father, I'm not...."

"I'm well aware. I've just decided that you shouldn't reproduce."

Here's another scenario:

Kingdoms A, B, and C have good standing diplomatic relations. King A, unfortunately, is dying, his wife is long dead, and his heir is five years old. Princess B and Princess C marry, and raise the heir, with the understanding that they share the throne until one of them dies, at which point the throne falls to the original heir.

Honestly, there are probably a dozen scenarios where a same-sex royal marriage could be used to hold a territory in treaty or to foster a spare heir or a beloved bastard for later assumption of the throne.

And, of course, the comedy of two Disaster Lesbians who have agreed to marry for a shared throne, each being completely in love with the other one and totally clueless that the other one is Not Faking, because they each think that their family married them off for one of the reasons above and not because they knew full well their daughters were lesbians. The Princesses and the Glass Closet.

If folks are interested in a Chinese dynastic version of this, it seems to be a fairly common trope to justify homosexual marriage in historical webnovels. (by fairly common, I've read at least two.) e.g. hmm this general/advisor/nth prince is getting a little too influential, time to nerf them with a arranged gay marriage. Now they won't have legitimate heirs and are taken out of the race for the throne. Pretty sure Golden Terrace by Cang Wu Bin Bai is an example of this and is available in a hard copy Eng version from Peach Flower House. I also just finished After Being Forced to Marry the Evil Star General by Gu Sanyue online. which is a version of this as well.

I love me a pseudo-historical arranged marriage au but it always nudges my suspension of disbelief when the author has to dance around the implicit expectation that an arranged marriage should lead to children, which a cis gay couple can't provide.

I know for a lot of people that's irrelevant to what they want from an Arranged Marriage plot, but personally I like playing in the weird and uncomfortable implications.

So, I've been thinking about how you would justify an obviously barren marriage in That Kind of fantasy world, and I thought it'd be interesting if gay marriage in Ye Old Fantasy Land was a form of soft disinheritance/abdication.

Like, "Oh, God, I don't want to be in this position of power please just find me a boy to marry", or, "I know you should inherit after you father passes but as your stepmother/legal guardian I think it'd make more sense if my kids got everything, so maybe consider lesbianism?", or "Look, we both know neither of our families has enough money to support that many grandkids, so let's just pair some spares and save both our treasuries the trouble".

Obviously this brings in some very different dynamics that I know not everyone would be pinged by, but I just think it'd be neat.

This is actually a really cool variant solution to a real historical problem, wherein either primogeniture or other profoundly shitty customs led to wealthy parents having insufficient resources to provide for all of their children in a manner consistent with their station.

Historically, the Church and its widespread monastic structure functioned as a dumping ground for second/third/etc sons and all the daughters one can't afford to marry off adequately, with the military eventually picking up the slack for the former post-Reformation to the point where it's been argued that the need for something to occupy these dispossessed sons played a role in Europe's ongoing conflicts between its nations and the eventual push of imperialism and colonization over the rest of the world.

In a world where homosexuality were more accepted, it would offer a new option: spare a comparatively-small outlay of resources from the main family fortune to equip a house and accoutrements, which would be reabsorbed into the family as a return inheritance in a few decades, and contract a marriage which would be deliberately unable to produce legitimate offspring.

You get the advantages of creating marital ties with another wealthy family, the people married therein have a spouse and the status achievements that go with marriage, and the risk that your child goes off and marries someone unsuitable or inconvenient is removed entirely, as is the risk that they could marry someone and have legitimate, inheritance-claiming children with them. Sure, they can have affairs and thus get children if they're married to a same-sex spouse, but those children cannot be passed off as legitimate issue of the marriage, and so they pose less of a threat to the the main body of the family's wealth.

And, thus: perfectly reasonable reason why your pseudohistorical fictional characters can find themselves in a same-sex arranged marriage!

"Nicholas, we've arranged for you to marry Eric, in the neighboring kingdom."

"But father, I'm not...."

"I'm well aware. I've just decided that you shouldn't reproduce."

one of my favorite things about mdzs is that for how heavily its plot involves politics of classism and misogyny... even the characters most directly impacted by it can't and don't free themselves from it. literally the closest exception is mianmian.

meng yao being the "son of a whore" wasn't some sort of commie awakening for him that led him to wanting everyone to be socially equal. he played the political game, climbed the ladders, sucked up to and backstabbed and murdered people, including other prostitutes who actually had nothing to do with how he and his mother were treated at the brothel he grew up in.

he put in so much extra excessive effort for even a fraction of the same respect that members of gentry cultivation clans got. and he did deserve to be treated more humanely! but he feeds into the exact same system that created him, leading to his own undoing.

his efforts were for a fragile upward mobility that was never going to hold up. he never surpassed his origins nor did he empower others in similar stations, because the society he lives in is not one that would accept that.

the second he got caught and all those crimes exposed, he was scapegoated to hell and back, replacing wei wuxian as society's terrible one-sidedly evil boogeyman overnight.

Hey mdzs crowd how would wwx being a bloodborne hunter sucked into a night of the hunt every full moon sound?

Maybe not a full long night, just an 'hour' of it every month, so he finishes one full hunt a year??

A qi free place, exactly like the actual game, but he has to sneak away into the moonlight portal or risk an agonising transformation into a grotesque beast himself for the duration the moon is in the sky. Cloud cover does nothing. He will try and kill everything in his path unless chained.

A choice between becoming a werewolf or the hunter, basically.

And lwj somehow following him through the portal once, to this qi less place, but as a cultivator of significant insight and an unprotected human of normal blood it goes REALLY downhill fast until wwx is able to free him, either by a high adrenaline scene getting a collapsing lwj back through the portal before it closes or by managing to drag his increasingly agonised and overwhelmed body to the sanctuary until the time is over, thus wasting valuable time and making things so much worse for wwx in the next full moons. It's a very angsty and traumatising reveal all round.

Because wwx is a whip smart guy with dangerous thoughts on resentment and the use of corpses, who went through horrifying things and emerged amazingly intact but not untouched, and I think it'd be really interesting to see the interplay of these dual lives. How the cultivation world is so, so much better in pretty much every way, but its own horrors reflective of yharnam, its capabilities for so much more than what they have.

Like, he'd be so much more desensitised to horror and gore, but it'd be matched by the stubborn drive that this is his home, his refuge from the dragging terror of the hunt, and he'd defend that to his last breath. And living a life as a (horribly fragile if lethal) mortal and still surviving the worst yharnam has to throw at him, he'd have a very different outlook on losing his core. He's already seen how, with the right tools, he can be just as dangerous if not more than the average cultivator. And in the cultivation world there's just so much more potential!

His inherent goodness, too, would not survive without damage just from the smog of hopelessness in the air. A wwx who can't keep that instinctive urge to help, but now has to choose, with every second, to remain kind (if not extremely inflammatory about it lmao).

The contemplation of demonic cultivation, too, would have a very different sort of draw. It's not just forbidden, taboo, but he's seen the very worst of it in action; the healing church, the orphan of kos, the vile bloods, the school of mensis, the feral beasts in rotten human skin roaming every street convinced they're still human.

But wwx isn't wwx without truly amazing levels of trailblazing hubris and curiosity, and he'd have the little niggling whispers in the back of his head, theories about how what they did could have been used for actual good, or at least more humanely. When he committed to the risk of demonic cultivation, he'd feel the dangerous itch to practice on things already dead, things that can't touch his home. To organise his goals, get some sort of advantage from this awful place, where the consequences (probably) can't follow him home. But yharnam is the most dangerous place possible to try messing with blood and the dead, and the knowledge of the rheumy eyes of the eldritch monstrosities above him is a heavy pressure on the back of his head.

I'd love to explore the themes of the changes wrought, these two different existences touching through wwx, but also can you imagine the yiling patriarch with a gun and a butchers knife?