Helloo, have you ever thought about Lord of the Rings characters? Like the 9 in the Fellowship / whether races like elves, dwarves etc tend towards a particular Primary/Secondary / The Hobbit characters. Thanks! :)

Firstly, you should check out thetolkienhat, where some awesome people have created and collected a bunch of Tolkien sortings using this system. It’s really neat! And they all know this canon eight million times better than I do. Go say hi, sing their praises, contribute, etc. 

I’ve read LotR a good few dozen times, but not in a few years. I’ll be working somewhat off movie canon here, though with that certainly shaded by a familiarity with and fondness for the text. Here’s our Hobbits, though! If I get inspired later, I’ll see if I can stick up the rest of the Fellowship, too. 

Note: in the way we play this game, we use “primary” to mean WHY people do things and “secondary” to mean HOW. 

Pippin - Hufflepuff primary/Gryffindor secondary - Heart of gold, a strong sense of duty and service, and a tendency to charge (or trip) into things.

Merry - Slytherin primary/Ravenclaw secondary - He’s possessive and loyal, and handles his problems with deliberate logic and intelligence. He has narrow focus on his allegiances where Hufflepuff Primary Pippin has a broad, non-exclusive affection for all; where Pippin charges, Merry can back him up (or yank him out of trouble) with a thought-out plan; and he’ll probably bring supplies, too.

Samwise - Slytherin primary/Hufflepuff secondary - We thought for a moment he was a Gryffindor, but we’re pretty sure all that is is that Frodo is his Most Important Person (and Morality Pet). Sam does some Big Loud Gryffindor Things but every one of them is for the sake of his Mr. Frodo, not the world, even if it does save it. He doesn’t talk about the cause, or evil, or duty— Sam crosses the world, fights orcs, and carries (and gives up) the Ring for, not the world, but for his Shire, his Gaffer, and his Mr. Frodo.

(No, let’s look at this again. Little hobbit Samwise Gamgee willing gives up the One Ring to Frodo, because in the end Frodo Baggins is more important to him than it could ever be. My Slytherin darling).

The Hufflepuff Secondary comes from the fact that Sam does not terribly engage with Ravenclaw’s planning and system building, Slytherin’s adaptability, or even Gryffindor’s charge (though he can resemble that last one fairly well) — one of his most stunning attributes will always be steadiness, sturdiness, and a willingness to buckle down and do hard work, whether it’s weeding or learning songs from Mr. Bilbo or carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom. 

Frodo - Ravenclaw primary/Slytherin secondary - Frodo is very good at switching his path when things becomes irritating or difficult. He’s flexible and unattached to method— an adaptable Slytherin Secondary aimed towards quietly saving the world.  

He’s certainly not a loyalty house— dropping Sam near Minas Morgul is easy; his leaving the Fellowship near the fords sounds most like an Idealist move, making decisions for the greater good. He’s not as linked to group as Hufflepuff Pippin, who mourns their disbanding. Of course his Slytherin Sam won’t let him abandon/save them entirely, but what else would you expect form the poor garden snake.

Miriel Þerindë

I’ve taken an inordinately long time with this because Míriel is difficult. Eventually, I settled on Slytherin/Gryffindor, although I’ve gone back and forth several times, especially with the primary, and even now am not entirely sure.

My biggest problem is that the Míriel in LACE and the Míriel and the Shibboleth of Fëanor are substantially different characters. In the earliest versions of the story of Finwë and Míriel, she decides to go to Lorien herself. In LACE, and the Quenta Silmarillion, Finwë goes to Manwë, who delivers her to Lorien. In the Shibboleth - as in all versions - it is said that she dies of her own free will, but her presence in Lórien is not mentioned. Most importantly, all versions except the Shibboleth, she dies when Fëanor is an infant or young child. In the Shibboleth, she endures for his sake until he’s an adult. 

For a while - until I sat down to answer this question, actually - I was sure that Míriel was a Ravenclaw primary. After all, she’s an artist, and the Search for Beauty isn’t that different from the Search for Truth. Her work is just as important to her as Fëanor’s is to him. But she thinks of it in different terms. Her work is an extension of herself, and her actions are all motivated by people. She never references an ethical system for any of her choices, it’s all about her and the people she cares about. 

And that’s where the Slytherin primary comes in. LACE!Míriel and Silm!Míriel care deeply about their families, but they’re willing to make a decision that hurts them - dying - because that’s what they need. Shibboleth!Míriel looks more like a Hufflepuff. She’s patient and self-sacrificing to a fault. But her actions aren’t motivated by the fundamental equality of persons, they’re motivated by her love for her son. And in the end, she still refuses to come back. Crucially, she doesn’t seem to feel any guilt about it. She knows when she’s reached her limit, and every attempt to get her to come back to life for her husband and son just makes her more determined. 

The Gryffindor secondary is much simpler. Her response to every problem we see her face - admittedly, not a large selection - is to keep insisting until she gets what she wants. If there is one thing we know about Míriel Þërindë it’s that she’s stubborn as all hell, and for all her brilliance, it doesn’t really occur to her to manipulate or outhink her obstacles. 

Brandir! :)

Oooh boy. I’m going to take this and run with it, you watch. Possible gratuitous headcanon because I can’t always tell anymore.

So the nice(/horrible) thing about doing Brandir is that he has two primaries! No, I’m not going to argue that he’s a special snowflake. One of the really heart-breaking things for me about any version of the Narn, especially on rereads, is seeing it happen – Hufflepuff -> Burned Hufflepuff.

So when we first meet him, he’s not perfect, but this is the man who is author-described as ‘gentle’, who really dislikes hurting people, whose profession and calling is healing and herblore. This is the man who knew that the man who’d just been brought to him would cause Brandir’s own death and probably other horrible things and still gave him medical care because he was a human being. This is someone who helps everyone. Everyone is important, everyone is worthy of consideration, everyone deserves to be helped if they’re hurt – no matter what. His leadership decisions are based around keeping everyone safe, because non-warriors deserve to pursue their lives too and that means not living in the middle of a constant pitched battle.

And then… it goes badly. And it’s when the people he’s always helped, the people who, collectively, are what he values most highly, shut him out, that’s what burns him. It’s not about Niniel, or even directly about Turin. That was hard for him. It was horrible. It didn’t always bring out the best in him, either; sometimes he would get passive-aggressive and bitter, which is a negative Hufflepuff trait. But that isn’t what breaks him.

We actually see the moment where he gets ‘Burnt’, which if I understand correctly isn’t really typical. Everyone has ignored his advice over and over again, they’re all in danger, he’s suffering for his attempts to help people… and it’s not working because they won’t let him help them. And that’s when he snaps, and breaks his staff, and says, as I’ve put it before, “Fuck all y’all.”

This is clearly not a healthy thing. I mean, I would argue that it’s justified, but either way it’s not nice for him either. He collapses his circle down to him and Niniel, and while a Slytherin could do this in a healthy way – say, decide it was necessary for their mental or emotional health and be perfectly happy with a small circle – that’s not what happened. The decision was spurred by bitterness and anger and the breakdown of how his world was supposed to work. He was supposed to be able to help people – maybe it had to be at great cost to himself, but against that price he was supposed to be able to hold up a benefit to others and now there is none. He decides the best thing now is to care about one other person, and while the fact that he was in love with her probably had more to do with it than anything else, it’s worth noting that Niniel is the only person he can conceivably still help. Everyone else is refusing to take his advice; he’s useless to Turin’s party – but maybe he can help Niniel. He can find a way for the two of them to escape and live. That’s his explicit motivation.

It’s really heartbreaking to me, because in the end the only way he knows how to deal with not being able to help people is to force himself to stop caring about them.  There was a lot of other emotional baggage there too, but that’s the core issue.

I’m inclined to say Hufflepuff secondary as well, although you could make a case for Ravenclaw considering we don’t have much canon about his working/learning habits. But I’m going to say Hufflepuff, not just because he slots perfectly into the ‘community builder’ role that secondary Hufflepuffs often take, but because he exhibits a lot of their failings as well. “Bitter and passive-aggressive doormat” is sortinghatchat’s description of a possible negative Hufflepuff Secondary, and while ‘doormat’ is over-strong, Brandir does demonstrate an extended –and, I think, deliberate – unwillingness to stand up for himself. At first it would have been part and parcel of suppressing his own needs for the sake of other people – and then it was because he was too disillusioned to feel it would make any difference. When he’s being stepped on, he does tend towards bitterness and passive-aggression, and I think it’s pretty clear that later on he is suppressing a lot of the emotional exhaustion – both the suppression and the exhaustion itself being hallmarks of the house in a bad situation.

I don’t want to sound overly negative about it, because the Hufflepuff Secondary was wonderful until… right about when Turin showed up. I’m pretty sure there was a better balance, and the amount of good he did with it before it started to sour was probably incredible. That’s what makes the souring, which leads up to the eventual Burning of his primary, that much more awful.

I will note that I think he probably had a Ravenclaw model he used essentially for Leader/Strategy Mode, but Brandir? Hufflepuff/Hufflepuff.

Haleth!

All righty.

*gulp* To be honest I have no idea if I’m remotely qualified to talk about Haleth… *panics quietly*

So-oo. Might as well go for it: I’m going to say Gryffindor primary.

I almost said Slytherin. I wanted to. But… if Haleth has a group she considers ‘her people’ then that group would be, well, her people.  And I know that some of them died on the relocation to Brethil. It was basically a calculated risk. I don’t necessarily disagree with it, but I think that it’s not something a Slytherin primary would do – risk the lives of the people in their circle that way. Of course, it’s possible her circle was smaller than that, but I can’t frame it in a way where Slytherin!Haleth wouldn’t still be endangering some of the people in it… which is not something a Slytherin would do.

That said, she’s definitely a Felt person, not a Constructed person, so if you rule out Slytherin that leaves Gryffindor, the Idealist/Felt house. And I do think that suits her – I’m leaning heavily on the “the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men” conversation here: there are things that are Just Right and Just Wrong, and having anything to do with people who killed your family is Just Wrong. People who don’t understand that are weird and kind of disturbing.

Haleth has ideals – familial loyalty, blood should be repaid by blood, independence is important (#HaladinIndependance!). And the ideals are the most important thing – they’re worth a dangerous and potentially fatal journey through a seriously terrifying and fatal place. That is a Gryffindor value.

I am… having trouble with the secondary. I’m leaning towards Slytherin because, well, I can’t recall if it’s specified that she’s adaptable but I’ve always taken it for granted simply because she’d have to be. But then that particular logic suggests a Slytherin model, not secondary.

But you know what? Screw it. I am going to say that Haleth is a Gryffindor Primary/Slytherin Secondary who models Gryffindor Secondary sometimes. She uses whatever tools are at hand – but given the choice/opportunity, she likes to use the Gryffindor set of them. (Quite possibly because they were common in her family – considering how Haldar died I would say he either modeled or was Gryffindor secondary at least.)

Haleth = Gryffindor/Slytherin.

Hunthor?

You sent me three. (Three!!!!! Eeee! *flails*)

I’m going to start with Hunthor, even though he was last, because I have a better feel for him than I do for Haleth but I’m not quite as emotionally over-invested as I am in Brandir which means (hopefully?) that I can see a little clearer. And I was definitely hoping for this one.

*opens ALL THE TABS on sortinghatchat*

Hunthor’s defining trait, as I’ve always seen it, is his loyalty to Brandir. Now, Brandir both deserved and was entitled to Hunthor’s loyalty (and others’, but he only got Hunthor’s), so that loyalty could either stem from Slytherin values – this is my cousin and like hell I’m going to let you treat him like this – or Gryffindor values – this is just wrong/you don’t abandon family – or Ravenclaw ones – logically, he was right the whole time.

But given the context, I feel fairly confident saying that Hunthor is a Gryffindor primary. I read through all the descriptions, just to be sure, but I knew by the time I’d finished the first paragraph that he was a Gryffindor. “Truth begets action.”

That is what Hunthor’s defining moment is all about. It’s about him calling out Dorlas’s hypocrisy – Gryffindor primaries loathe hypocrisy. It’s about what’s true, both in an innate, Felt sense – it is wrong to speak to your rightful chieftain like that when this is not his fault – and also in a practical sense, because Dorlas is talking bullshit even from a purely factual perspective. It’s probably accurate to say that Hunthor’s Gryffindor values system includes loyalty to family as things that are inherently ‘right’; he certainly is angry with Dorlas for insulting his cousin, not just his leader, as he says, “May shame take him for his words to my kinsman,” (emphasis mine) not ‘his leader’. But if he was a Slytherin primary, he would have focused on Turin as well as Dorlas. That makes it clear that Hunthor’s main motivation is tied up in the truth part of it. It’s not about facing down the people who have hurt Brandir (although he’s not happy about that either), it’s about facing down the people who are wrong. Dorlas is making blatantly fallacious statement and slandering someone without cause and Hunthor, as a Gryffindor primary (and as one who seems to suspect Dorlas of his eventual cowardice) will not stand for that. The fact that the injured party is his cousin and his leader is important, yes – but what stings him is the hypocrisy and Felt wrongness of what is happening.

All right. Secondaries.

…I’m actually going to go with Gryffindor secondary as well. Gryffindor secondary means directness, honesty, and meeting problems head on. You’re saying nasty, untrue things? Let me rebut that loudly. My cousin shames his house by not going to fight a dragon, you say? Allow me to act as his surrogate and I will fight that dragon. Alone with Turin on the other side of the river, Hunthor is just as direct and unflinching in his dislike of and disdain for Dorlas as he would have been with someone who wasn’t one of Dorlas’s closest friends. “He’s definitely a coward and a hypocrite and I hope he suffers because he deserves it,” he says (paraphrase). He could have stopped at, “He failed the crossing,” but he didn’t. He doesn’t hide his scorn for Dorlas – it could even be argued that his words are a subtle rebuke to Turin; after all, Turin didn’t exactly contradict Dorlas’s little fit of snideness. But if it is, it’s out there. Hunthor isn’t like Brandir; he’s not capable of sitting quietly and letting things stew and being resentful. When something bothers him, he calls it out; when something’s wrong, he does whatever is in his power to fix it, even going up against Glaurung.

So yes. Hunthor: Gryffindor/Gryffindor. This is my hopefully coherent analysis. I need to find some food, and then I will take a crack at the others.

And Erestor? :)

Let me start with the secondary because primary is surprisingly difficult for Erestor.

Erestor is definitely a Ravenclaw secondary, no doubt about that. He’s certainly the Insufferable Genius type, like Hermione, he collects information like others would collect pretty shells or stamps. 

As for primary, this was a lot harder. I think Slytherin. While he’s not selfish (much) outwardly, he’s all for self-preservation. He’ll do what he needs to do to protect himself, even if it makes him look like a coward. Better a coward than dead, most of the time. It’s not he doesn’t care for people outside his friends and family, he just thinks himself and people he cares about are worth more. That being said, it’s extremely unlike him to abandon a friend. 

Caranthir?

Caranthir is interesting; I had to work a bit backwards to figure him out.I think he’s pretty clearly a Gryffindor Secondary. He shows no interest in duplicity or scheming, and when he has something to say he doesn’t sugar-coat his words. He’s direct and doesn’t seem to mind what others think about it. I think false pleasantries are dishonest in his mind, and if he’s “quick to anger” it’s because he sees no reason to hide his feelings on a subject (because that, too, would be dishonest.)Despite his initial (and rather negative) assessment of the Dwarves, he still manages to set up a partnership with them that greatly benefits both parties. That he does this even after expressing obvious scorn for the Dwarves makes me think he must be very persuasive. His bluntness might be offensive, but he says what he means, and you always know where you stand with him. While a seemingly odd trait in a diplomat, it’s effective for him, since he and Maedhros are noted to form alliances with Men for the Union of Maedhros. That ends badly, but it shows that Caranthir gets things done.While we get a fair bit of info about Caranthir’s actions, there isn’t much about his motives or thoughts. I think he’s most likely a Ravenclaw Primary, for a few reasons.Caranthir is very independent. While the other sons of Feanor are often seen working in pairs or with their cousins, he’s often the odd one out, doing his own thing. We know little about his interests before the Darkening, which I assume means he kept to himself (and therefore no record of it would make it into the Silmarillion, since the in-universe sources wouldn’t have that info.) This implies to me that he doesn’t seek validation from others, which matches the Ravenclaw Primary’s internal “truth” and integrity.Again I think his interaction with the Dwarves is telling. He doesn’t initially like them, but he doesn’t dismiss them. His partnership with them implies choices based in rationale rather than gut instinct, another Ravenclaw Primary trait. He doesn’t need to like someone in order to respect or value them. And because he’s consistent, he doesn’t need others to like him, as long as they treat him fairly. When he encounters Men, he seems slower to judge them and quicker to propose a partnership. This shows both consistency and a willingness to accept facts even when it means admitting he’d been wrong, which matches up with the Ravenclaw Primary’s search for truth. 

Maeglin?

Finally tackling this! This one was actually quite tricky, because I think my general headcanons on Maeglin are focused on how he relates to other people and his surroundings in general, not his inner beliefs and values. But I’ve narrowed down my thoughts to Ravenclaw/Slytherin.

See, I got to this conclusion by asking myself what Maeglin wants. What he really wants is to fit in and be accepted by others, and he also wants to create some kind of self-identity that is independent from his father and his past. Now, the Ravenclaw Primary, according to sortinghatchats, is characterized by a search for some constant, universal truth, which is how I see Maeglin. In his case, however, his search is internal – he’s not looking for an intellectual truth, he’s looking for a personal truth, a self identity that he can hold onto. I also think that Maeglin would just tend to value knowledge and intellectualism. He grew up hearing stories from his mother about the Noldor, a culture that placed a lot of value on those things. I believe that Maeglin would have seen those stories as a form of escapism, and therefore placed the Noldor on quite a bit of a pedestal; therefore, he would also have placed defining aspects of Noldorin culture, such as academia and creativity, on a pedestal, and seen those things as a means of being accepted by his mother’s people.

The Slytherin part is a little more self-explanatory – in practice, we see that Maeglin is very much concerned with self-preservation. His actions (escaping Nan Elmoth and betraying Gondolin to Morgoth under threat of torture) point to a method of protecting himself and looking after his own interests before anything else. He also displays cunning and adaptability after returning to Gondolin, as he is able to mask the fact that something is wrong from everybody (save Idril).   

I'm so so glad you're participating!! Idril?

I chewed this over for a while, and I’m tentatively proposing: Slytherin Primary, Gryffindor Secondary. She strikes me as someone who focuses hard on individual relationships, more so than Tuor, who’s a generally charismatic guy; she takes quick, decisive action, and at least in my headcanon she struggles with being kind of blunt. Her Slytherin motivations are mostly wrapped up in keeping the particular people she cares about safe, and her Gryffindor methods means she’ll find the quickest way to DO something about it, even if her situation is making that hard.

and Tuor?

Doing Tuor first because Idril is surprisingly challenging.

I personally read Tuor as a Hufflepuff/Hufflepuff who sometimes models Gryffindor. He is both intensely mom friend and intensely scary to people who exist outside of his ‘yes these are people’ circle; plus I kind of read him dropping the business of Ulmo’s message as being partly because he cares about the harmony of the place he now belongs to (Gondolin).

Aaaand I do feel like Tuor strongly splits the world along lines of ‘people’ and ‘not really people’? Like, he’s an enormously caring guy who generally puts the needs of everyone else first, but if you’re a Bad Guy he will have absolutely no qualms about crushing your skull. So, yeah, that’s why I feel it’s a good fit.

…I’m not great with the words right now.

and Sauron?

…did you mean Sauron as in Sauron the quintessence of the Slytherin/Ravenclaw? I find Sauron’s character very appealing for various reasons, his intelligence and cunning being the most obvious ones, but there’s one characteristic of his that I particularly love: his extreme cogency. When mixed to his essentially egoistical nature, fierce determination, emotional detachment and extreme practicality, it creates a dreadful antagonist but also an infinitely fascinating character. This may be a little bit headcanon-ish, because I’ve seen him portrayed in many different ways and in some interpretations he’s very loyal to Melkor’s cause (and, at first, I did too), but, as I see him now, he follows Melkor not because he thinks it’s right, but because he thinks it’s logical. Which is a super secondary-Ravenclaw thought process, if you ask me. He’s obviously a Chessmaster in the most Slytherin way possible, but I also see him as an insufferable obsessive information gatherer (his manipulations are so subtle that he couldn’t be anything else), maybe even someone with genuine interest of the world surrounding him, but always with a practical, selfish goal behind it. So, Slytherin/Ravenclaw it is. I am afraid this answer turned into an unreadable thought-vomiting thing, which tends to happen with alarming frequency when I start talking about my favorite characters, but I hope it’s understandable nonetheless. Just ignore the weird Sauron fangirling, I guess. 

I'm so excited you're doing it!!! Celegorm?

Hmmmm… I was rather torn on this one, I must admit, but I think that in the end I’ll settle on a Slytherin primary/Gryffindor secondary. Which, by the way, I think goes along pretty well with Celegorm’s unsettling personality. He’s basically a ticking bomb of selfish interests and brutal loyalty which is incidentally exactly the reason why I love him. After looking at the chart I think I headcanon all the Fëanorians as Slytherins primaries (loyality to their own personal cause -even before the Oath, as I see it- is such a prominent trait in their personalities that I think cannot be ignored), but for some reason I always have a hard time choosing their secondaries… but I’m kinda happy with this Celegorm. I hope you’ll be happy too! :)

And Hyellinde?

Slytherin/Slytherin, with a Ravenclaw model.

(clearly I’ve spend too much time around D&D alignments, because I keep wanting to call the matching primary/secondary types “true X” a la “true Neutral” :P)

reading through the Slytherin primary page, with its emphasis on a person having their people that they’re loyal to, and that being the centre of their morality, is classic Tatyar family priorities in a nutshell, and Hyellinde is no exception. this is, for example, where her chief friction with Curufin (also a Slytherin primary!) comes from — they come into their marriage with very different circles of who their people and thus their chief loyalties are, and Hyellinde is fundamentally unwilling to subsume her own loyalties in favour of being A Feanorian. (had they not been married at such a politically tumultuous time when loyalty in this way was not quite so violently important as the centuries before the Darkening, and thus that conflict not at the forefront of their dynamic almost immediately, it’s actually perfectly easy for me to see Hyellinde coming over time to view Curufin’s family as part of her own circle (and Curufin likewise with Hyellinde’s).) she also, of course, deeply values having the power to control her own fate, and sees herself and her family as “deserving” prominence, and hence her strong ambitions.

the little bit I’ve seen about “petrified” Slytherins also has shades of Hyellinde’s behaviour in it, specifically with why she leaves her entire family to stay in Aman when the Noldor depart. it’s not that she’s been hurt to the point of refusing to place her loyalty to anybody but herself; rather that the way the rebellion takes shape, it places her loyalty to her family in direct conflict with her duty to take care of herself, which again is of fundamental importance to her. and seeing the future pain that would result, she picks herself. (incidentally, I also see her decision to let Celebrimbor choose whether to stay or leave on his own, to be a part of her notion of loyalty, too: though he’s her son, her notion of doing right by him is to allow him the freedom to make his own decisions, which she stands by and values even despite it meaning she loses him herself.)

Slytherin secondary is also an easy choice for her, because adaptation to new situations, putting a new face on for every occasion that requires it to see her acquire the power and influence that will allow her to live happily and comfortably, is Hyellinde’s bread and butter. the realities of the world she lives in change (e.g. the Darkening), and she will alter her public face to what’s needed to ensure she not only doesn’t lose, but gains. she does dislike capitalising on her status as a Feanorian’s wife, but that’s because it’s exactly that which caused her to stay in Aman in the first place, not because she finds it untrue to her “inner self”. and while, like her sister (a Ravenclaw secondary), she prefers to approach situations with planning, systems, and organisation, that’s ultimately more of a useful preference than a necessity for how she deals with situations, and while Aicasáme will barrel her way through things straightforwardly, expecting obstacles to get out of the way or get trampled, Hyellinde will ultimately see them, accept their presence, and move around them, finding the angle that will allow her to turn them into her own advantages.

And Turgon?

Turgon is Hufflepuff primary with Gryffindor secondary. I was toying with Slytherin secondary, but I think ultimately he’s more of Gryffindor secondary.

Turgon is such a people person, the mother hen type. He’s totally the type who have to take action and make his goals reality, but it’s all based on his need to protect people. However, he understand really well that you can’t force people to adhere to his ideals, so he allowed himself to bargain a lot and sometimes he ended up sacrificing his personal opinion to maintain peace in community (in his terms).

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