It’s always very easy to say that there’s “room for moderation” when you are not the party calling for action. It is in fact, one of the things people who exploited marginalized groups count on and why people who would like to improve the world encourage a concept known as solidarity.

I tend to believe that there are circumstances under which a demand to stop is appropriate - particularly if you want start a petition since a wishy washy petition is worse than useless.  What kind of extra information do you think you need?  Will this addition they made satisfy you or will there always be “just a few more things”?

If someone came and told you that someone had broken into their house and stolen herlooms that were precious to to them, would you need more information before you cared? Do you need to know the full story behind the item to agree that it’s tragic it’s stolen?

Would you tell them that they should instead look at this as an opportunity to help whoever robbed them to better understand why stealing is wrong?  Even the thief tells them that they’re not interested in giving things back but want to know what they’re allowed to steal next time?

Monte Cook Games had the responsibility, resources and ability to look for better information,  find consultants, etc before releasing the product.  They received funding well in excess of their stated budget and have a team of seasoned professionals and a wide reaching fan base.  They didn’t make any effort.

When contacted and let know that they had been very hurtful and harmful, they advised that they weren’t interested in hearing about it unless it was in a manner that benefited them.

Refusing to listen to oppressed people and placing a responsibility of educating you in the manner you want is both victim blaming and advocating for further exploitation of the people via free labor.

Wincenworks wrote:

“It’s always very easy to say that there’s “room for moderation” when you are not the party calling for action. It is in fact, one of the things people who exploited marginalized groups count on and why people who would like to improve the world encourage a concept known as solidarity.”

So solidarity is keeping your mouth shut and not speaking when you think an opportunity is being missed? Solidarity means that you should not give your honest assessment? Once I’ve signed, don’t I also lose my right to criticize, since I’ve given my endorsement? Then what good have I done if I have not voiced by dissent?

Also, if it is difficult to call for moderation when you are the one calling for action, then doesn’t it follow that the rest of us should call for moderation if we believe it to be appropriate?

In the grander scheme, this is about the narratives, the ones that confuses one native american people for another and turns the whole thing into a congealed mass of disparate cultures.

The theft analogy may be accurate in terms of emotional impact, but when it comes to the process it is inaccurate on crucial points. The most glaring being that it propose that there is a clear villain with malicious intent.

Working within that same framework of ideas, I would propose that it is more to the point that it’s about a person glimpsing your home through a window and then, after glimpsing a few nearby homes the same way, builds an idea of what your home and life is like.

Then a second person, a third and so on do roughly the same thing. Some of them knock on the door and ask if they can come in and actually talk to you, but they are not the majority.

These people tell all their friends what your home is like, and this becomes the accepted narrative. These stories capture the imagination of some listeners, who then proceed to take inspiration from them when writing or designing. Some decide to model parts of their lives on ideas from the stories. Still others just retell the stories to their friends.

Now the whispering game is afoot.

One day, you wake up to find your precious heirloom in every shop. But it isn’t right. It would be bad enough if it was just a replica, but It has flaws and misplaced designs on it. It’s stated purpose is also wrong.

It sits there, mocking any sentimental attachment you have to the heirloom back home, all the while a whole bunch of people agree that this piece is really so very “you”. Some of them even go so far as calling it “authentic”.

Your stomach turns as you know how wrong this is, so you set about trying your damndest to tell people how it really is. But selling your narrative is difficult, the accepted narratives (having percolated through the minds of many) are much simpler and much more entertaining.

In the end, you yourself have been reduced to just that: a simple, entertaining and very sellable idea.

I propose that the idea itself needs to be countered, that the more complex narrative has to be asserted in the minds of the majority for the unjust portrayal to stop and the cultural identity be reclaimed.

MA took a step in that direction (by offering us an insight into her reality) when she added her addendum, so yes I’ll sign based on this.

But I also say, why stop here? Why not make this petition a delivery system for a new narrative?

Wincenworks wrote:

“Refusing to listen to oppressed people and placing a responsibility of educating you in the manner you want is both victim blaming and advocating for further exploitation of the people via free labor.”

Bullshit. I’d say you are severly underestimating MA and people like her. By her own statement:

“[...] Regardless of displacement, I am still active within the community as someone who disseminates information pertinent to our communities through online resources and word-of-mouth. [...]”

Though she does not outright state it, I would assume that she doesn’t do this alone. A lot of work has been put in already as I understand it, so why not add links to the petition, so as to disseminate that work? If there are online resources that you wish people ot witness, why not expose them here and now? The petition is drawing a lot of attention right? 543 supporters at the time of writing (yet more have probably read it without signing), and links would draw a lot of those people in as readers.

Allow me to once again reiterate, we are talking about a petition here. The best you can hope for is that it will be read. Add the information, elaborate on the narrative and every reading (whether it leads to action or not) is a victory because you have planted the idea in the mind of the reader.

So, to tie back to what I said at the start about solidarity: This is an opportunity, I feel that more could be done with it, I wouldn’t show much solidarity if I didn’t say as much.

[Notes: Thank you to Wincenworks for helping me refine my original ideas and identify where my misgivings come from. This has been an interesting exhange so far.

My original reblog was more acerbic than necessary, and my ideas where less defined. So I struck out in any direction I felt needed exploring (including the possible explanations for MCG’s attitude). My apologies to anyone that may have taken offense.

As before, the link to the petition will remain at the top of the post, I encourage you to click it and make your own call.]

While not a bikini armor issue, this is a very important one which relates to the same core problem - complete disrespect for a group of people’s humanity.

In this case it is a case of Monte Cook Games (probably the most influential independent studio in pen-and-paper roleplaying) refusing to respect Native Americans and treat them as people rather than as a racist fantasy trope.  In summary:

It’s appalling that a studio with this much autonomy and influence would choose to perpetuate these dehumanizing tropes and stereotypes then further belittle the people who suffer for it.

As such starshineexx has created the linked petition and we encourage everyone to help out by lending their voices to this cause and let an influential studio know that this just is not acceptable.

- wincenworks

Checked out the links and the petition, and stil not sure what the outrage is all about.

While the Thunder Plains builds on common stereotypes about native americans (as I understand it, it is stereotypic NA natives with sprinklings of pacific stereotypes), they are also meant to be reflections of common or individual experiences and fantasies. This is stated several times in and in relation to the book.

But then, I’m not a native American, nor am I particularly familiar with native american culture or the problems faced by native americans in todays society. Maybe the mere existance of the referred to passages is a slander upon the native americans everywhere, and ruinous to their chances of making a living and gaining the respect of those around them? I doubt it though…

However, the petition strikes me as wholly destructive. It is neither progressive nor constructive:

Lack of progressiveness

The petition does not outline why the passages are offensive, so it doesn’t inform anyone about what to avoid doing in the future and scoffs at the idea of including native americans in the editorial process:

"When confronted with these issues, there have been offers for inclusion on review boards, but no acknowledgement of mistakes or harm, no apologies, and plenty of jibes and rude comments (especially from Shanna Germain)" Taken from the petition here.

Only apologies and the removal of the offending passages will suffice, thus there is no room for a progressive solution.

Lack of constructivity

It doesn’t offer any middle ground, only absolutes: either Monte Cook acquiesces to the demand, or they decline it. 

If they acquiesce, that’s a known financial loss: the writers were paid, as was the editor, the publishing and printing was an expense, then a reprint on top of that and the book is left with less content.

If they decline they may take a loss in sales. Also the petition may be used later as a demonstration of deafness to the plight of minorities on behalf of Monte Cook and any other company, group or demographic that they may be associated with.

So all in all, the petitioner is saying: either you agree to take a financial loss (with little to no gain, as less content means less consumer appeal), or you incur the disfavor of me and any people who sign this petition. Which frankly doesn’t sound very constructive.

FInally

Given the tone of the tweets posted at:  http://starshineexx.tumblr.com/post/113354619919/alright-my-fellow-indigenous-people-i-know-yall

I am not at all surprised they were blocked by Monte Cook and company, and it probably has more to do with annoyance than any desire to silence criticism.

That’s just my 5 cents tho, sign it if you wish I’m sure there are good intentions here.

[Reblogging BABD because they add useful links.]

Okay… well allow me to bring you some enlightenment:

“While the Thunder Plains builds on common stereotypes about native americans (as I understand it, it is stereotypic NA natives with sprinklings of pacific stereotypes), they are also meant to be reflections of common or individual experiences and fantasies. This is stated several times in and in relation to the book.”

This means absolutely nothing - the book didn’t need to have a specific section for Native Americans (and it already has an “Earth” recursion) and they didn’t need to make a product that did such.  It’s super shitty of them to decide that belittling stereotypes created by white people are worthy of inclusion and not critique this in any way.

Considerations like what is and isn’t acceptable are things they would have had to look at since there’s no way they could include every fantasy - they’re responsible for their choices.  They chose to specifically make this one and to play it straight with no concern for what ideas and judgments they were re-enforcing in their audience.

“The petition does not outline why the passages are offensive, so it doesn’t inform anyone about what to avoid doing in the future and scoffs at the idea of including native americans in the editorial process”

More accurately it highlights that no particular Native American is obligated to give their time, energy and knowledge for free and that there’s no wait to present hurtful stereotypes in a way that’s  not hurtful and perpetuating stereotypes.

If you look in the tweet history you can see they point out that since there are 5.2 million Native Americans - it shouldn’t be hard for Monte Cook Games to have done this in advance if they sincerely made the effort.  They didn’t.

They didn’t when they made the original product, and now they aren’t doing it now - what they’re asking for is basically for someone to give them approval so they can say they did check with a group.

Seriously, if you do consult with a person or group on how to represent a group then you must be ready to accept “No” as an answer.  Your idea may be fundamentally and irreparably flawed (like “we want to encourage people to invent ideas around misrepresenting stereotypes”), the group may be in a really bad place representation wise or the people you consult may simply not feel qualified/comfortable with helping your vision.

“Only apologies and the removal of the offending passages will suffice, thus there is no room for a progressive solution.”

This is an example of Argument to Moderation as a logical fallacy.  It assumes that there must be a “correct” middle ground when there’s no reason for there to be.  If someone breaks into your house and starts stealing your valuables - you don’t engage in a conversation with them and help them steal “in a positive manner” because there’s no obligation for you to do so.

Native Americans, as a people and as individuals, don’t owe Monte Cook Games anything.  Not their time, not the use of their culture as a decoration, their faith as a free ideas box or anything else.

“But then, I’m not a native American, nor am I particularly familiar with native american culture or the problems faced by native americans in todays society.“

Well then a good start would have been to read and actually take the time to get their perspective rather than appoint yourself arbitrator with a determination that there must be a middle ground.

I’m white so I can’t explain the specifics for Native Americans, but as a general guideline - anything that takes a real, living people and then distorts them for fantasy purposes (especially if it’s not a widely understood faith) contributes to de-humanizing the view of that people.

It erases the complexities (such as the fact there is no “Native American” myth, there are different nations with different stories and beliefs) and reduces them down to a gimmick for others benefit while distorting what people think they should be like.

Nobody likes to be misrepresented, and certainly people who suffer oppression regularly in a nation that belonged to their ancestors don’t like having said ancestors treated as a marketing gimmick for white people who don’t want to bother doing research or actually being creative.

“If they acquiesce, that’s a known financial loss: the writers were paid, as was the editor, the publishing and printing was an expense, then a reprint on top of that and the book is left with less content.“

Yes, when you do the wrong thing it is generally agreed that there should be some negative consequences.  Agreeing to do the “right thing” only if it benefits you is not doing the right thing, it’s manipulative profiteering.

Monte Cook Games had the entire production of The Strange, they set their goal at $60,000 and got > $400,000 so can afford a fancy interactive site and are now pulling in money from additional sales (many of which are PDFs that don’t need to be physically created).

The notion that they’d suffer crippling losses from removing 2.5 pages (out of over 400 in a book) and releasing an official statement the Thunder Plains are no longer part of the the world and will not appear or be mentioned in future publications is absurd.

Your whole stance comes from the approach that somehow Monte Cook Games have a right to just use and misrepresent the culture and beliefs of millions of people without consequence or judgement.

They do not have this right. Nobody does or should.

As for how to include Native Americans, or any other group to whom you do not belong - there are guides freely offered and, for those heavily invested, consultants available and people who can’t be easily found and contacted with a sincere request.

A sincere request means you understand they may have no interest in helping you and if they do agree to help they will probably want to be compensated for their efforts and (again) may tell you that you should not do the thing you want to do.  All these things are their right.

They’re not paid teachers. They’re not hired consultants. They’re not obligated to set what they’re doing aside in order to help other people make a profit or improve their art.  Other people though, should probably listen and give them leeway for being upset when they take the time to say that something is hurting them - particularly when it’s a lazy stereotype reproduced without thought.

Thank you to wincenworks for taking the time to elaborate on where the outrage comes from, for further defining the problem, and for providing links on how to overcome this problem as a writer and/or developer.

It is interesting to see another take on the issue.

It is especially interesting to see the argument about there being no moderate path. I am of the opinion that there is always a path of moderation, and it does not necessairly mean making a compromise (or, helping them ‘steal “in a positive manner”’ as wincenworks puts it).

As an example: Right now the petition is an ultimatum, DEMANDING that Monte Cook cut out a part of their product because it offends the petitioner, and appeals to others (specifically native americans) who feels the same to put their weight behind it. If you are not angry, and you are not sure why others are, then the petition is a very uninformative.

Now, let’s say that the petition was rewritten to include a list of specific points where the petitoner feels that Monte Cook has wronged Native Armericans, along a description of why it is wrong and some information about what they feel that Monte Cook should have done (thus giving hints/directions about where to start). Now the reader may, through simply reading the petition, be turned to the petitioner’s side (and regardless they may learn something).

And given that an online petition carries no actual weight (other than as an indicator of public opinion), the only significant direct effect of the petition being signed is that people at Monte Cook may read it.

This is a form of moderation where you can still make your demand, have a better chance of your demand being accepted, better chance of promoting understanding (thus being progressive) and may give others the tools to modify their behaviour in the future (thus being constructive). And if nothing else, you are more likely to garner good-will with the reader.

So I stick to the notion of there always being room for moderation, but wish to thank wincenworks for his concern.

[Disclaimer: I’m of the opinion that the more we argue about this, the more the petition gets signal boosted (at the time of writing, it is on it’s way to it’s 500th subsriber).

While I do not agree with the petition and will not sign it myself, I welcome others to read the petition and sign it if it strikes their fancy. I confess to being curious about how this will pan out and welcome any excuse to post the link again. I may not have many followers, but I figure that someone might see it.

If I can air out my own misgivings and learn something at the same time, I’m happy with that.]

While not a bikini armor issue, this is a very important one which relates to the same core problem - complete disrespect for a group of people’s humanity.

In this case it is a case of Monte Cook Games (probably the most influential independent studio in pen-and-paper roleplaying) refusing to respect Native Americans and treat them as people rather than as a racist fantasy trope.  In summary:

It’s appalling that a studio with this much autonomy and influence would choose to perpetuate these dehumanizing tropes and stereotypes then further belittle the people who suffer for it.

As such starshineexx has created the linked petition and we encourage everyone to help out by lending their voices to this cause and let an influential studio know that this just is not acceptable.

- wincenworks

Checked out the links and the petition, and stil not sure what the outrage is all about.

While the Thunder Plains builds on common stereotypes about native americans (as I understand it, it is stereotypic NA natives with sprinklings of pacific stereotypes), they are also meant to be reflections of common or individual experiences and fantasies. This is stated several times in and in relation to the book.

But then, I'm not a native American, nor am I particularly familiar with native american culture or the problems faced by native americans in todays society. Maybe the mere existance of the referred to passages is a slander upon the native americans everywhere, and ruinous to their chances of making a living and gaining the respect of those around them? I doubt it though...

However, the petition strikes me as wholly destructive. It is neither progressive nor constructive:

Lack of progressiveness

The petition does not outline why the passages are offensive, so it doesn't inform anyone about what to avoid doing in the future and scoffs at the idea of including native americans in the editorial process:

"When confronted with these issues, there have been offers for inclusion on review boards, but no acknowledgement of mistakes or harm, no apologies, and plenty of jibes and rude comments (especially from Shanna Germain)" Taken from the petition here.

Only apologies and the removal of the offending passages will suffice, thus there is no room for a progressive solution.

Lack of constructivity

It doesn't offer any middle ground, only absolutes: either Monte Cook acquiesces to the demand, or they decline it. 

If they acquiesce, that's a known financial loss: the writers were paid, as was the editor, the publishing and printing was an expense, then a reprint on top of that and the book is left with less content.

If they decline they may take a loss in sales. Also the petition may be used later as a demonstration of deafness to the plight of minorities on behalf of Monte Cook and any other company, group or demographic that they may be associated with.

So all in all, the petitioner is saying: either you agree to take a financial loss (with little to no gain, as less content means less consumer appeal), or you incur the disfavor of me and any people who sign this petition. Which frankly doesn't sound very constructive.

FInally

Given the tone of the tweets posted at:  http://starshineexx.tumblr.com/post/113354619919/alright-my-fellow-indigenous-people-i-know-yall

I am not at all surprised they were blocked by Monte Cook and company, and it probably has more to do with annoyance than any desire to silence criticism.

That’s just my 5 cents tho, sign it if you wish I’m sure there are good intentions here.

[Reblogging BABD because they add useful links.]

Installation 04 With Halo 2’s 10th anniversary yesterday, and the Master Chief Collection releasing tomorrow, it felt like a good time to make some Halo-themed pixel art. Getting this to rotate convincingly and perfectly loop was a doozy. By Alex Griendling / Blog / Twitter

Maaan... This is so cool.

However, if you look at the continents/islands, you'll notice that this ring-world is reeeal uniform :P

On the other hand, I'm sorry that the Master Chief Collection won't be released on PC :(