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aspiring vigilante

@bxtgrl / bxtgrl.tumblr.com

Nat. She/her. Comic books. Video games. Lots more. All fandoms tagged. Hobbies include writing fic, making fanvids, and obsessing over the batfamily 24/7. Talk to me about my ocs.
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ravynfyre

so many people do not understand that 1) animals are not people, and 2) they aren't teaching their animals what they THINK they are teaching them.

dog group on the book of faces, someone is asking for advice on how to get their dog to come to them after the dog is done relieving itself outside. The dog doesn't like coming to them an they spend ten or twenty minutes or more catching the dog each time to bring it in. Which reminded me of one of many attempts to talk a person through trying to fix exactly this same behavior in *many* other dogs over the years...

Me: So, a quick question for you... does the dog not coming to you and you having to chase them down frustrate you?

Them: Of course!

Me: So what do you do when you finally either catch the dog or get them to come to you?

Them: I give the dog a correction!

Me: So. You get hands on your dog and then you immediately punish them for allowing you to get hands on them. And you wonder why your dog has developed the habit of not coming to you?

Them: No, that's not... I'm punishing them for not coming when I call!

Me: Which was.... fifteen minutes ago, or so, you said?

Them: Yes, when I first called them!

Me: Dogs brains literally cannot link an abstract thought like that. A thought and a consequence MUST happen within 2.4 seconds of one another, or the consequence becomes linked to the most recent behavior, thought, or activity. So, tell me... how is your dog supposed to understand that you punishing them is for the event fifteen minutes ago when you have made such a concerted, if unintentional, effort to teach them that them getting close enough for you to lay hands on them in the yard means an immediate punishment?

Them: But that's not what I *meant*!

Me: Doesn't matter what YOU meant... what THEY learned is that they come to you, and they get punished. Stop punishing your dog for the behavior that you want to see more of.

Stop anthropomorphizing your animals, folks. They don't think like us. Stop setting them - and yourself - up for failure.

with humans, thanks to the capacity for abstract thought, punishing them basically always produces undesired results.

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I hate Bruce's "I don't kill because once I start, I wouldn't be able to stop"

Like I simply do not buy it. Murder is not a potato chip Bruce. I think he is full of shit and a messy bitch who lives for the drama. I am certain Bruce has some kind of valid reason for not killing, but I don't believe that this is it.

No no let’s dig into this. And let’s not go into the obvious of, “murders bad” or “he’d feel guilty” like let’s try to find another reason to why this bitch man doesn’t kill anyone, including his son’s murderer

So there are generally around 5-6 "big reasons" traditionally given for why Bruce doesn't kill his villains, many of which have been explored in comics and others of which have been discussed and debated ad nauseum around the internet. Here's the four I tend to find most compelling:

  • Bruce's moral code that prohibits killing is ultimately what separates him from those he fights against. He follows a very strict deontological viewpoint of "killing is wrong, regardless of intentions or consequences." Jason, by contrast, has a "ends justify the means" consequentialist mentality of "if you kill a criminal, you prevent more crime, so the killing is justified." The ethical dilemma surrounding this issue is that who are you, random quasi-legal vigilante on a self-imposed quest to end crime, to decide when you are or aren't preventing "more killing/crime" by killing a criminal? What makes Bruce qualified to determine who should get to live and die? He doesn't think he is, so he's simply said "I don't have that right. I'll instead work to save everyone, regardless of who they are/what they've done (to me or anyone else)."
  • Bruce's "if I start killing, I don't think I'd be able to stop" is less "murder is a potato chip" and more about the rationalization it would take to take that first step off the edge. Essentially, if he kills Joker, why not kill Two-Face? What makes killing Joker fundamentally different from killing Two-Face? From killing Penguin? From killing Harley, Ivy, Killer Croc, etc? Why is killing the Joker okay but killing say....Victor Zzasz isn't? When does a villain commit enough illegal and morally reprehensible acts that extrajudicial murder is an acceptable solution?
  • Part of the point and purpose of Bruce being Batman in addition to Bruce Wayne, CEO of Wayne Enterprises, is the flexibility he has in pursuing justice, rehabilitation, and re-education. The entire point of Batman is preventing the Wayne Family Tragedy™ from happening to anyone else. Bruce's entire mission in life is creating a world where "no more children lose their parents to some punk with a gun." Batman is supposed to prevent more children from becoming orphans, more wives from becoming widows, more husbands from becoming widowers, more parents from losing their children. What does killing do except perpetuate that cycle of violence and undermine his core mission?
  • How is Batman any different from the cops if he kills? Batman can't be a figure to inspire reform in the criminal justice system (and specifically the GCPD) if he kills, because how does that make Batman any better than the corrupt system he claims to want to make better? Batman killing doesn't inspire hope that there is a better way; it would just be an extension of how Gotham's "justice system" works anyway. By refusing to cross that line Batman as a symbol encourages Gotham to be better than they are.

As an expansion of #2, you could very reasonably make the point that "but it's the Joker! He's different!" But is he? Is he really? He's certainly done more permanent personal harm to the Batfamily than most other villains (Babs and Jason specifically), but what about Two-Face smashing Dick to pieces with a baseball bat in Robin: Year One? What about Black Mask torturing Steph to death during War Games? What about Shiva killing Cass in Batgirl (even if she brought her back)? What about Ra's nearly killing Tim in Red Robin? What about Talia murdering Damian by proxy (via Heretic) in Batman Inc.? What about Bane murdering Alfred in City of Bane? Where's the line?

Bruce has seen 3-4 people he's either legally or nominally responsible for die on his watch, another 3 tortured to near-death conditions on multiple occasions, 1 permanently injured, and had a villain murder the man who raised him and leave his body for Bruce to find, and yet the only thing anyone really ever talks about re: Bruce killing is Jason and the Joker. If the line is torturing one of his kids (or those flying under his banner) half to death, by all rights he should have killed Two-Face and Black Mask for what they did to Dick and Steph. If it's killing a 'family' member, he should have killed Joker, Black Mask, Bane, and Talia (also Lex Luthor and...technically Jacob Kane, considering everyone thought Tim was dead during the Rebirth arc).

It's not just the Joker at stake here: if we start saying "Batman should kill the Joker because of what he did to Jason [and everyone else]," you start getting into really thorny questions about well...a lot of Bruce's villains have done some ridiculously morally reprehensible stuff, including mass murder and irreparable personal harm to someone he considers family. What makes the Joker's mass murder different from Ivy's mass murder (and yes, canonically they are both mass murderers) that justifies the Joker's death but not Ivy's?

You can of course justify that by saying "but Ivy's not unredeemable! She can be reasoned with and rehabilitated!" but...what if Bruce had made the decision that she was unredeemable and worthy of death before her No Man's Land-era redemption arc kicked off? It loops back around to #1, that Bruce doesn't feel personally qualified to make that moral and ethical decision about who gets to live or die, because he thinks everyone has the personal capacity to change (and what right does he have to take that possibility away from someone?)

....also personally I think "they deserve to die" and "I deserve to kill them/let them die" aren't morally/ethically equivalent statements and Bruce can certainly think Joker deserves to die without also thinking he is morally allowed to kill him (or morally allowed to let someone else kill him when he has the ability to stop them).

#SAY THAT. #my go to whenever this pops up is somewhere along the lines of "what is he...a cop????". #bc like!!!! half the reason batman (and most of the bat family) are so compelling to me is their deep belief in restorative justice!! #its certainly simpler to just kill someone who's done wrong to you and others and walk away believing you at least prevented further harm. #its farrrrr more narratively fascinating (to me) to find compassion for someone you despise #and actively take a role in helping them better themselves. #thats WHY batman works in a city like gotham. otherwise yes ur so right he'd just be another cop. #and i absolutely love how u pointed out how many horrible things the other rogues have done bc i feel like fandom often forgets that. #(i know i certainly do). #but yes vv much so!!! where is the line???? what makes killing joker ok but not two-face? or black mask? or harley? #AGAGAGAGAG now i'm just reiterating ur points. #op im sorry i'll shut up #i just!!!!!! adore!!! this!!!! meta!!!!! SO MUCH!!!!

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vamptits

when you censor yourself like this -> *** on my dash i respect your right to privacy but I AM trying to decipher it like we're playing hangman or something. is there an o in there give me something to work with

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deimcs
WYLL approves of valiant acts of defending the innocent or the defenceless, and appreciates kindness towards children. Peaceful, but decisive actions resonate with him, and those that take a genuine interest in him and the struggles he faces are also well-liked by him.
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