also, i can’t believe they kept the “That butler, something” format even in the ten chapters said butler was not around. 

“That butle, grieving” bitch what was he grieving for, he didn’t know any of the Phantomhive except Ciel. wtf are you talking about

Undertaker and Real Ciel

Everyone remember this GFantasy cover?

My first thought?

’Ooooh, what a nice cover!’

My second thought?

’That’s…not Our Ciel…’

And now we have Chapter 140:

That GFantasy cover is from January 2017. Add that to the list of foreshadowing!

Black Butler chapter 141

One of Sebastian’s deadliest forms

°･*:。☆favorite characters as voted by our followers☆。:*･°

demon!Ciel for @sharpestrose

[Whole debate]

@into–the–abyss, I’m sorry, I had to conceal the previous reblogs because it was becoming extremely long, I hope you don’t mind.

First though, here’s a disclaimer to clarify something that you said: Undertaker is indeed one of my favorite characters because I find him complex and interesting. However, I do like Sebastian’s character very much as well and no, I don’t know about you or other bloggers, but I don’t “defend” characters I enjoy. 

My only interest in all of this is to present my take on both their characters, based on how I interpret what I read about them and their dynamic in canon, and (not necessarily for this debate but) to possibly help people avoid mischaracterizing them when it’s really too blatant a contradiction with canon. 

That’s why I was a bit mad a few days past that you’d consider that everyone who liked UT’s character was biased about him, because I really don’t think that we all are. Of course it’s subjective so I can understand you not believing me, but please know that I’m striving on being impartial whenever I discuss series. :)

Here’s what was precisely said:

but considering what I said in my previous post, I’m still thinking that it’s possible it might be meant as a luxury in the sense that they’re always hungry for souls, because it will only satiate their hunger for a short time whenever they eat (and deceiving humans before getting their soul is the reason they exist), but this hunger won’t lead them to get weak and die/stop existing. 

And even then if you don’t agree on the idea, it’s completely fine, but I still stand by my opinion that our!Ciel’s contract was/is in no way an immediate necessity for Seb because he initially left the choice to Ciel and anyway, it was confirmed he ate the twin’s soul literally just before offering the contract (and it’s been 4 years since then). 

In other words, I don’t think Seb deserves to win (again, to use your words) because I don’t think his survival is linked to him eating Ciel’s soul or not. In fact, I feel it’s a bit too dichotomic to just pit the characters against each other and gauge who deserves to get their agenda validated. 

It’s just more complex than that IMO and actually that’s why I like Ciel being at the center of Seb’s and UT’s different goals, because overall it’s him living or dying (something that he has a decisional power over, even if it doesn’t seem so clear to even him so far IMO) that will decide who between Seb and UT wins.

I won’t expand because it’s all on my blog and probably not something you wish to discuss in details, but ch108 is just hard to take at face value. Obviously it tells us that UT is involved in this arc, but how and to what point, it’s not so certain (at least to me) for different reasons so far. 

I’ll leave it at that though because in itself it doesn’t change much about UT’s (or Seb’s) characterization for the reason I explained in my previous post (namely that if UT’s indeed the responsible party behind this arc, whether it is partially or entirely, then he most likely fucked up because he’s not above that).

Again, I’ll try not to ramble, because it’s one of these things that appear easy to catch on when you look at what Sensei implied about his character’s agenda up until now, but it’s just from my own opinion as always. 

So to quote myself: “it is most likely the results of him having a fucked up existence overall, which led to desperation and to him acting terribly” and, maybe I should have precised from the get go, but I include his obvious enjoyment of (frankly) horrible events as a part of “him acting terribly”. 

I do think that the mad scientist vibe was a façade too, just like the eccentric creepy mortician was at least partially an act, that is until ch105 when it was implied that he apparently had a real reason to have said the following: 

because the Phantomhive family (and thus Ciel’s survival) appears to really (emotionally) matter to him (and even if the reason behind that is simple selfishness, it’s at least one motivation behind his agenda). 

Human vs Demon for their origin on the aspect of Seb vs UT just dictates that UT’s past led him to become what he is now (it’s not to be seen as an excuse but as an explanation/ascertainment), while Seb is the way he is because it’s his nature, so as I said in my previous reblog, comparing them on this doesn’t really lead to anything relevant in my opinion. It’s regarding their agenda however that a comparison can be made, because I agree with UT that the only thing that sets them apart is their goal towards Ciel.

Overall my point is: referring to UT as a chaotic character is not wrong per se, because he is really going by his own rules, however I think some of his motivations are defined and were hinted at before in the story (which isn’t always the case with chaotic characters).  Tragic or not however, I think we will have to decide once we know more about his past, because UT will probably remain a mysterious character until then. 

As for him being desperate, this is again just my opinion but he deserted 50 years ago. Granted that we don’t know what he was up to all this time, I find it odd that he’d start going on several insane rampages after Vincent’s death, the contract and the Queen being up to shady plans (when we know he doesn’t really like her), for the timing to be a coincidence.

Maybe I should have just said that, since he probably has nothing left to lose besides Ciel’s soul to Seb, it’s possibly the reason he’s going all out now, especially if he’s after something in particular where the Queen is concerned. I may be wrong but it’s just that I doubt he used to constantly go to such extreme for his goals, which is why I tend to qualify this as him possibly being desperate.

Look, I’m not saying that the fandom doesn’t have UT-apologists, because clearly some exist and I also agree that Yana-sensei’s writing has its issues in sometimes being vague, but so far I like the Seb => Ciel <= UT plot dynamic. 

Finally about UT during the twins’ captivity: I really think you are being slightly unfair yes, haha, if just because there are so many things we still don’t know about that one month => we don’t know how Tanaka managed to escape the (possibly already burning) manor and reach the hospital while still alive, we don’t know what Frances did during that one month, so I think it’s natural that whatever UT was up to is still unknown for now.

Personally I don’t doubt that UT, Frances, Alexis and possibly Klaus and Diedrich really tried to locate the twins by any means possible since their bodies weren’t found in the burnt manor, but the culprits were probably clever enough not to leave any clue. :/ But we’ll see that for sure when it’s going to be addressed. Finally…

Rest assured, I do not think either that Seb “raised Ciel to be evil”, precisely because of ch14 that you mentioned and his little exchange with Frances. In fact I don’t think that Ciel is evil, but that’s another debate. 

However, while Seb certainly taught Ciel important things in order for him to learn about the world he was evolving in and to fit in, I do think that he’s one to enjoy watching Ciel occasionally suffer, if just because that’s how he “cultivates” Ciel’s soul. 

Seb sees humans as insects, I hope you don’t disagree on that, but that doesn’t stop him from being interested in how they think and how they act, thus it makes sense that he’d enjoy his “butler game” with Ciel too and that he’d support him/give him advice, while still enjoying whenever Ciel is damning his soul more and more. 

There, I didn’t address everything, but I think it should cover most of what our initial disagreement seemed to have been based on. Obviously you don’t have to answer (publicly or privately), but I certainly did appreciate knowing the full depth over just your initial answer to that first Anon. :))

But....."starving...." The word itself implies a necessity.

I guess if one would like to think demons seek out souls for their own hedonistic enjoyment, sure, that would make a demon much more cruel. Because then consuming a soul becomes a choice, not a necessity. It would be like a lion killing extra zebras just for fun, not because it needed to fill its belly.

Edit:

Only some people keep forgetting about UT’s having killed over 1,000 people, not all of you.  Obviously it’s impossible for 100% of you to forget something.

But I still maintain that this fandom looks more favorably on UT than it does Sebastian, which I always found curious considering that UT was a human and a case can be made that he is bound by a moral code.  If not a human moral code, then at least the code of the shinigami.

I guess this is what happens when a story does not have a clearly-established antagonist.

Ever thought that maybe a reason the fandom seems to look more favorably on UT than it does on Seb is because, while UT is a huge asshole who did plenty of morally reprehensible things, he doesn’t intend to eat Ciel’s soul after every horror that this kiddo already went through?

‘Cause personally that’s partially the reason.

Another reason might be that UT is more mysterious, and thus more intriguing, than Seb who’s not getting any positive development ever (literally Seb’s character is hiding nothing particularly intriguing), so maybe fans simply show more interest in trying to understand his goal, which you interpreted as a collective fandom bias towards UT.

In spite of what I just said though, Seb is still the favorite character of a lot of fans according to the last poll and he’s the charmer because he’s a demon, while UT’s problematic behavior made him appear as a real antagonist until fairly recently (Sensei even made a tweet on the subject).

Look, you have your opinion about the series and I don’t know if you have something against UT or the fandom, or both (which is your right), but please avoid mixing the two together and calling everyone out when clearly you haven’t been around for a while. 

EDIT: obviously you not being around for a while isn’t a criticism in itself, it’s just to highlight that we’ve been lost in debates and debates of “UT is obviously the big bad/a villain” for a while, until Sensei’s tweet about ch131 which was translated only a month ago and apparently put an end to it from what I’ve seen. 

So the fact that you’d call out everyone as being more biased towards UT’s character than Seb’s (after one Anon who possibly missed a few things while reading) was rather uncalled for and mostly untrue.  I really don’t care if you decide to shit on UT (if anything he deserves it, as long as it’s not done through mischaracterization), but looking down on the rest of the fandom collectively when a good part of it had a lot of debates about this subject precisely was just unfair. 

I’m looking at intention and necessity.

Sebastian is like a lion that needs to eat a gazelle to survive.  Does that make the lion “evil” and deserving of “losing” and therefore starvation?

I look at Undertaker, who has free will to do as he pleases and who decides to set in motion a chain of events which led to 1000+ innocent people dying, who mutilated corpses, actions which even a demon found disgusting.  Who then threw Ciel over a balcony, and a demon had to save his life, and later wreaked havoc on a boy’s school.

Eating Ciel’s soul is repayment for Sebastian lending Ciel his power for 3+ years.  He never would’ve been able to do the things he’s done as Watchdog without Sebastian.  And he would’ve been dead many times over without Sebastian, including being sacrificed by the cultists from their very first meeting.  But, no, he escaped from that alive.  It’s a steep price, but he got the power he wanted to reinvent himself from the weak, powerless child he was.

Based on that, I’ve picked which of the two deserves to “win” at the end of the story.

I’ve seen many bloggers talking about how UT is sad and tragic and lonely for living so long, etc., etc.

Other than myself and two other people, I don’t see any bloggers standing up for Sebastian.  Exactly as it was on the forums.  No, he’s always blamed for manipulating OC, for wanting his soul (which he needs to survive) for being evil, and so forth.  He even gave OC a choice to make the contract.

None of it matters anyway, because it looks like we’re getting the “Queen is the villain” ending from the anime.

I agree with half your points and half not.

So I’ll first establish what I agree with you on.

True, Undertaker is responsible for the majority, if not all the deaths on the Campania concerning his experiment, and yes, he had the intention of letting them loose as based on the quote you provided. No matter much of a fangirl I am, that fact has already been proven via canon.

As for Sebastian, yes, he does need to survive, and yes, your analogy is correct. True, he did give OurCiel a choice, but I believe it’s not without manipulation of some kind.

Here is where we disagree.

Yes, OurCiel forfeited his soul of his own choice, but Sebastian raised him, and you can clearly see influences of Sebastian’s treatment based on how treats people. There’s too many to point out all, but a few are his attitudes and reactions to certain situations. He’s learned to be cruel and vicious at some points, yet maintains his “innocence”, that is being merciful and kind, which is extremely interesting for a demon to see in a contractor, hence Sebastian’s interest in OurCiel and his over-protectiveness as a demon for him.

You believing that the lion as evil or not is all based on perspective and opinion. Sebastian is a demon, and demons are evil, whether or not they “help”people because ultimately their souls end up in Hell. Your analogy is correct, but influences of Sebastian convincing OurCiel to make the contract can be seen in chapter 137. He clearly shocks OurCiel with the reality of sacrificing his brother multiple times as a reminder of the sacrifice made for Sebastian’s existing there in the first place. Clearly, he could’ve gone at any point, but he was waiting for OurCiel to break. Whether Chapter 137 or any future chapters confirm that is up to debate, but working with what I have, no matter the situation, Sebastian is still evil given his nature.

As for Undertaker’s apparently “tragic past” since yes he had to commit suicide in order to be a shinigami, yes, he’s lonely, but he’s making a conscious effort of trying to rescue OurCiel from Sebastian. It can be seen here below:

Chapter 24

Chapter 64

and chapter 84

You misinterpreted Undertaker’s actions of throwing Ciel off the balcony because he was testing the demon’s ability to save Ciel in any situation. Chapter 84 repeats the same idea as shown below:

Chapter 64

Chapter 84

Undertaker clearly cares for the well-being of OurCiel’s soul, and how much of that may be due to the past Earl is unknown and has yet to be proven aside from his grief at his death.

Until then, I clearly believe that Undertaker is still working on a way to save OurCiel from Sebastian although it may appear differently to you just for the sake of saving his soul. This doesn’t mean that it excuses his actions on the Campania whatsoever, mind you.

Uhh….you do realize you’re proving my point about people defending Undertaker, right?   You are overlooking his actions under the assumption that you somehow know he cares for the well-being of Ciel.

There’s no reason why UT can’t be an agent of chaos acting for no purpose at all, or acting for his own benefit or for the benefit of another.  You’re assuming a binary choice of either UT is “good” or “bad.”  The same with Sebastian.

A lioness may be evil to the POV of a gazelle, but to the lioness’s cubs, she is the reason they continue to exist.

Did anyone consider that perhaps Sebastian might even, oh, I don’t know…let CIel go from the contract?  Or that the contract may be null given that RC is now alive?  Or that some other outcome may happen?  Or maybe even this: OC has power, he got to exact his revenge–which is what he choose–and, being an honorable person, he lets Sebastian take his soul as a fair payment for Sebastian’s services, just like the end of Season 1.  It seems a bit unfair to Sebastian’s character to want him to be so flat and undeveloped that he’s nothing more than an agentless entity of evil who has the simple motivation of taking Ciel’s soul and that’s it.  There have been hints to a little something different about him–like the fact that supposedly he’s been starving for the past three years and has yet to take Ciel’s soul.  But anyway.

Sebastian barely caught Ciel on that balcony.  He had to launch himself forward in the air, and caught Ciel’s fingertips by mere inches.  Sebastian was wounded and could have missed.  What if he didn’t make it and Ciel went splat?  That was a huge risk to take.

Let’s not even consider Campania for the moment.  How about this: was it right for RC to be unnaturally resurrected into an aggressive form of himself that wound up having Agni killed and driving Prince Soma insane?  How exactly does this help OC again?  How is this “looking out for Ciel’s soul?”  I can’t really think of any way this benefits OCiel, given how horrified and distraught he’s been over the last few chapters.

And a very big question: where was Undertaker when Vincent and Rachel were murdered?  Where was he when the twins were sold into the cult?  If he really is so protective of the twins’ wellbeing, wouldn’t Uncle Undertaker have teleported in and saved them from being tortured by a bunch of crazed cultists?  If I remember correctly, he was even at the mansion before the party…so where did he go?

Or, perhaps…Undertaker is that calm-faced man under the who sat there and watched it all.  He does bear a bit of a resemblance to both the knife-wielder and the principal from the Weston arc.

I know I’m a nobody who appeared out of nowhere to give my two sense buuut the reason the undertaker wasn’t there to save the twins or prevent the death of their parents could be because he isn’t a reaper anymore and therefore doesn’t have access to the list. I mean, there isn’t any indication that he knew anything about the event before or after the fact. Without access to the death list there was no way for him to have any idea of what happened that night. After all, Why would he CRY about Vincent if he could have prevented the death? Besides, isn’t it a little creepy if he had stayed around watching the manor twenty four seven? Vincent probably seemed like he could take care of himself. Plus I doubt he’s the one who brought back real Ciel. Why change his methods all of a sudden especially since his original bizzare dolls were almost complete? That makes no sense. It’s almost as if it is precisely the reason why he CAN’T be the person who brought him back. After all, why bring back RealCiel whose body surely burned with the occultists when he obviously cared more for Vincent whose body also burned.

I love Sebastian, I do l, but he is a demon, who will never understand humans at all. He throws it in ourCiel’s face that he sacrificed his brother to get a contract. There’s nothing wrong with that but it’s precisely the fact that he’s a demon that makes people less sympathetic. So what if he doesn’t eat ourCiel’s soul? He can always find another meal. He’s not in a position where he NEEDS OurCiel, he merely WANTS him.

The Undertaker is mysterious and that’s why I’m so interested in finding out his goals. Everyone knows Sebastian’s goals, he’s not mysterious at all. With the Undertaker, I want to know his past, why he was a reaper, and the things that made him go to such great lengths to bring back people he loved. And isn’t that what most people would do? You can’t say you wouldn’t try to bring back your dead loved ones and it’s that idea that embarks sympathy from me. I can see a reflection of human desires that connects him to many fans.

I know what he did on the Campania but I see it as a series of events that act as a challenge for Sebastian, as if to say, “I can take him from you so keep him safe.” It doesn’t excuse it, but I like a lot of blood and gore so for me that was satisfying to read plus Lizzie.

And I feel as if the hundred or so deaths served that purpose. Remember, Ryan stoker was the one who brought them on the ship. That society wanted to use them to their own benefit and if the current arc says anything, someone else has already been doing it as well.

So it's 3 supportive reblogs for UT and 0 for Sebastian. Interesting.

He really is a side character at this point. XD

Edit:

Only some people keep forgetting about UT’s having killed over 1,000 people, not all of you.  Obviously it’s impossible for 100% of you to forget something.

But I still maintain that this fandom looks more favorably on UT than it does Sebastian, which I always found curious considering that UT was a human and a case can be made that he is bound by a moral code.  If not a human moral code, then at least the code of the shinigami.

I guess this is what happens when a story does not have a clearly-established antagonist.

Ever thought that maybe a reason the fandom seems to look more favorably on UT than it does on Seb is because, while UT is a huge asshole who did plenty of morally reprehensible things, he doesn’t intend to eat Ciel’s soul after every horror that this kiddo already went through?

‘Cause personally that’s partially the reason.

Another reason might be that UT is more mysterious, and thus more intriguing, than Seb who’s not getting any positive development ever (literally Seb’s character is hiding nothing particularly intriguing), so maybe fans simply show more interest in trying to understand his goal, which you interpreted as a collective fandom bias towards UT.

In spite of what I just said though, Seb is still the favorite character of a lot of fans according to the last poll and he’s the charmer because he’s a demon, while UT’s problematic behavior made him appear as a real antagonist until fairly recently (Sensei even made a tweet on the subject).

Look, you have your opinion about the series and I don’t know if you have something against UT or the fandom, or both (which is your right), but please avoid mixing the two together and calling everyone out when clearly you haven’t been around for a while. 

EDIT: obviously you not being around for a while isn’t a criticism in itself, it’s just to highlight that we’ve been lost in debates and debates of “UT is obviously the big bad/a villain” for a while, until Sensei’s tweet about ch131 which was translated only a month ago and apparently put an end to it from what I’ve seen. 

So the fact that you’d call out everyone as being more biased towards UT’s character than Seb’s (after one Anon who possibly missed a few things while reading) was rather uncalled for and mostly untrue.  I really don’t care if you decide to shit on UT (if anything he deserves it, as long as it’s not done through mischaracterization), but looking down on the rest of the fandom collectively when a good part of it had a lot of debates about this subject precisely was just unfair. 

I’m looking at intention and necessity.

Sebastian is like a lion that needs to eat a gazelle to survive.  Does that make the lion “evil” and deserving of “losing” and therefore starvation?

I look at Undertaker, who has free will to do as he pleases and who decides to set in motion a chain of events which led to 1000+ innocent people dying, who mutilated corpses, actions which even a demon found disgusting.  Who then threw Ciel over a balcony, and a demon had to save his life, and later wreaked havoc on a boy’s school.

Eating Ciel’s soul is repayment for Sebastian lending Ciel his power for 3+ years.  He never would’ve been able to do the things he’s done as Watchdog without Sebastian.  And he would’ve been dead many times over without Sebastian, including being sacrificed by the cultists from their very first meeting.  But, no, he escaped from that alive.  It’s a steep price, but he got the power he wanted to reinvent himself from the weak, powerless child he was.

Based on that, I’ve picked which of the two deserves to “win” at the end of the story.

I’ve seen many bloggers talking about how UT is sad and tragic and lonely for living so long, etc., etc.

Other than myself and two other people, I don’t see any bloggers standing up for Sebastian.  Exactly as it was on the forums.  No, he’s always blamed for manipulating OC, for wanting his soul (which he needs to survive) for being evil, and so forth.  He even gave OC a choice to make the contract.

None of it matters anyway, because it looks like we’re getting the “Queen is the villain” ending from the anime.

@into–the–abyss But then again, isn’t it a little fallacious for an argument? I truly mean no offense but I wonder if you’re not slightly mixing up different things. 

First of all, who said that Seb needs to eat souls to survive when he doesn’t exist on the same conditions as humans? It’s just my opinion but I’ve been considering for a while that, just like sleep, eating souls is possibly a luxury for demons, not a necessity, otherwise 

I mean, he ate real!Ciel’s soul maybe, what, five seconds before proposing a contract to our!Ciel? And since then he probably hasn’t eaten, so even if he has needs (which again I doubt, because he’s not anything human and demons’ nature in Kuro is to deceive and lead humans down the wrong path), I doubt that the contract to our!Ciel was an immediate necessity for his survival.

However, you kept referring to Ciel “choosing to make that contract” and thus having to pay for it with his soul and, while I agree that Ciel himself sees it like that (but not just), it’s yet another fallacious little argument in my opinion, because if our!Ciel hadn’t agreed to that contract, well, Seb would have simply left and Ciel would have died at the hands of the remaining cult. 

So the notion of choice there is ambiguous from my point of view, even more so when we look at Ciel’s circumstances: a traumatized ten year old kid who went through one month of hell and just saw his brother killed in front of his eyes, furthermore pushed to believe that he’s the one responsible for that by Seb claiming it was a sacrifice (when it wasn’t)? Obviously he decided to make that contract which is what Seb was counting on. 

Because that’s a demon’s nature. While humans, as you rightfully pointed out, are bound by a moral code, it’s certainly isn’t the case for demons. 

Which brings me to UT. All that you said is correct and that’s why he’s a real asshole. However, while this is in no way an excuse, it is most likely the results of him having a fucked up existence overall, which led to desperation and to him acting terribly. 

So comparing Seb to UT, or Seb to Ciel, or Seb to any human when they are bound by a moral code and he isn’t is not exactly meaningful. That’s all I meant above when I implied that overall Seb and UT could only be compared through their respective goals surrounding Ciel:

So yeah, UT is a huge asshole who did plenty of wrong and who’s certainly going to pay for that (oh he’s bound to go to Hell for sure), but to say that Seb deserves to “win” (to use your words)? 

I just don’t agree on that notion, that’s all. :)

EDIT: just saw the arguments you added on what that other person reblogged. You really have something against UT, don’t you? It’s either that or you forgot some parts of the story because you haven’t read it for a while:

Well, he was probably unaware of what was going on, like Frances, Diedrich, etc. I don’t understand why people think UT has to be aware of everything going on in Kuro when it was never implied? 

All he can do is teleport and use a scythe. Oh and he’s clever. That doesn’t mean he gets to foresee and know everything ahead and that’s precisely why he wanted to see Seb’s record and why he is still crying about Vincent.

I’m pretty sure that if he had known and could have done anything he would have (because yes, he cares about Ciel, just like he really cared about Vincent) but there are limits to what he can do/what he knows. No one should forget that.

First of all, you’re totally assuming that UT brought back real!Ciel, which wasn’t confirmed at all for now and might be more complicated than just that. Secondly, if UT is indeed the one who brought the twin back, well I agree, it’s making everyone miserable and it was the worst idea ever, but then again, who said that narratively speaking UT was above fucking up?

UT-apologists most likely and they’re a pain because they’re biased, but there are people who can be fans of UT’s character and not get the wrong idea about him. 

So don’t take the previous arcs for granted. It’s just like above, UT isn’t perfect and he’s mostly drowning in desperation, so he can fuck up and have bad ideas.

I’m pretty sure it was stated in the Circus arc that demons need souls to survive.  I’m kind of surprised that you’d even consider that consuming souls is optional...I thought that was well-established in the kuroverse?  William states he is a starving demon who is desperate or something like that.

UT was shown pouring something down (what we assume to be RC)’s throat in the early chapters of this arc and telling him it wasn’t time to wake up yet.  I dunno, but that seems like pretty strong evidence that he is somehow connected to his resurrection.  I am assuming, but it seems like a reasonable assumption given the evidence.  It’s no more a leap of logic than saying UT really cares about Ciel--given that that assumption takes faith in UT’s words at face value.

If you want me to admit that I don’t like UT, well, I don’t like him very much.  I don’t despise him like I do some character.  In fact, early on, I used to think he was rather mysterious and interesting but I’m not much for the shinigami in general and my fondness for him dissolved.  By the same token, isn’t UT one of your favs?  Don’t we all defend our favorite characters?  I know I defend Sebastian, for sure.

But this is the core of what alienated me from liking Undertaker:

and this:

Why assume that he’s drowning in desperation?  I’m not sure what really indicated that that is his motive.  He seemed rather gleeful when he talked about pitting the Bizarre Dolls against humans to see who would survive.  He’s sad over Vincent dying and the lockets, but being a little weepy over someone dying is different than drowning in sadness to the point where one is so desperate that one is spurred to blind action.  To speak frankly, no, I think he is very well in possession of his faculties, and that this was very much a choice he decided to make.  Why think that he acted out of desperation rather than a conscious choice?  He’s shown to be a very meticulous plotter when it comes to his schemes (posing as a principal took time and patience and a clear head.)  He is patient and calculating--so much so that he successfully calculated that a wounded Sebastian would catch Ciel.  I’m never really sure if having a supposedly sad existence excuses him of his actions or not...I always thought it was curious that some characters get pegged as tragic figures while others do not, but that’s a conversation for another day.

To me, I suppose UT acts the mad scientist at times, but I think that is a facade, given how he can turn serious during certain moments.  And he can become serious almost instantly, therefore, I think the eccentric creepy old man thing is an act.  Which makes me not trust his words or actions very much...therefore is the sadness an act, too?  Probably not, but I trust him a lot less than say, Agni.

I do believe he is driven, but he seems like he’s always been a rebel considering he deserted the shinigami.  Because of that, I see him as a chaotic character acting according amorally and marching to the beat of his own drum.  He makes alliances when it suits him (Stoker) but I think he acts in his own interest most of the time.  He seems too smart to be second in line in a scheme, which is why I think he is the brains behind this current arc, though I do think there is a possibility the Queen could be involved.

I do not see him as a tragic character.  Crying over a picture and wishing for someone (probably Vincent) to come back to life doesn’t qualify being consumed with overwhelming sadness for me.  He’s just too...elusive and distant from where I see it.  Yes, he did kill himself, but so did a lot of awful people in history; having a tragic end to his life doesn’t change matters considering that there are shinigami who follow the rules (Ronald, William) and those that could care less about rules (UT, Grell.)  But there are other characters that the fandom sees as tragic that I don’t for whatever reason.

As for UT not being there during the twins’ captivity...they were gone for a month.  You are right that I’m being unfair for expecting him to be all-knowing when he has no access to the list, but I do hope this question/plot hole is somehow addressed.  i.e. it is shown that he at least tried to look for them, or at the very least, worried about their absence.

I have heard of some people in the past on the forums preferring for Ciel to have rejected Sebastian’s contract and dying innocent--the assumption being he would go to Heaven.  I do take issue with fans (not you personally) saying that Sebastian manipulated OCiel into forming the contract when he outright stated that this was a choice and that it could be arranged so that he (Sebastian) could disappear.  OCiel took a chance to reinvent himself and become the Earl and exact revenge...which seems like a pretty okay choice.  I still am a bit mystified at the “Sebastian raised OCiel to be evil” theory (again, not yours) because Sebastian outright stated to Frances that it was important for Ciel to toughen up to deal with the evils of the world.  I kind of scratch my head, because that’s doing OCiel a favor...I’d rather he be strong and capable rather than a powerless weakling.  But I digress.

It all comes down to how vague this manga is.  It’s hard to take characters at their word when their words contradict their actions, or when morality is such a gray and tenuous thing.  For example, I think I’m one of the few people to think of Baron Kelvin as a tragic figure.  There is someone who I think has been consumed by sadness and an impossible dream to the point of being driven that he has lost his grip on reality.  He had no clue that what he was doing was wrong and completely messed up.  But he is easily called “evil.”  I suppose it’s because I think that if a person is so out of his mind as to not able to tell the difference between right and wrong, he can’t be bound by morality.

But anyway...I don’t think sadness is what drove UT to unleash a horde of Bizarre Dolls on the Campania.  It seemed to me like he enjoyed the entertainment of watching a thousand people die.  Which fits with the idea that he is a chaotic agent.  If he were driven by sadness, why not just be content with keeping the Bizarre Dolls to himself in his laboratory/parlor/whatever, and weep over his results.  Why unleash them on a ship full of innocent humans?  Again, this isn’t directed at you, but I see fans be quick to say UT is so tragic and sad and yet I just don’t get how some of his actions line up with that...I think his prime motivation is something other than sadness and loneliness.  (Again, it could be a combination of sadness and chaos.)

This is tangential to that, but at least Eric had a specific reason to collect 1,000 souls...the deaths on the Campania were meaningless.

Well, anyway, those are my thoughts.

Edit:

Only some people keep forgetting about UT’s having killed over 1,000 people, not all of you.  Obviously it’s impossible for 100% of you to forget something.

But I still maintain that this fandom looks more favorably on UT than it does Sebastian, which I always found curious considering that UT was a human and a case can be made that he is bound by a moral code.  If not a human moral code, then at least the code of the shinigami.

I guess this is what happens when a story does not have a clearly-established antagonist.

Ever thought that maybe a reason the fandom seems to look more favorably on UT than it does on Seb is because, while UT is a huge asshole who did plenty of morally reprehensible things, he doesn’t intend to eat Ciel’s soul after every horror that this kiddo already went through?

‘Cause personally that’s partially the reason.

Another reason might be that UT is more mysterious, and thus more intriguing, than Seb who’s not getting any positive development ever (literally Seb’s character is hiding nothing particularly intriguing), so maybe fans simply show more interest in trying to understand his goal, which you interpreted as a collective fandom bias towards UT.

In spite of what I just said though, Seb is still the favorite character of a lot of fans according to the last poll and he’s the charmer because he’s a demon, while UT’s problematic behavior made him appear as a real antagonist until fairly recently (Sensei even made a tweet on the subject).

Look, you have your opinion about the series and I don’t know if you have something against UT or the fandom, or both (which is your right), but please avoid mixing the two together and calling everyone out when clearly you haven’t been around for a while. 

EDIT: obviously you not being around for a while isn’t a criticism in itself, it’s just to highlight that we’ve been lost in debates and debates of “UT is obviously the big bad/a villain” for a while, until Sensei’s tweet about ch131 which was translated only a month ago and apparently put an end to it from what I’ve seen. 

So the fact that you’d call out everyone as being more biased towards UT’s character than Seb’s (after one Anon who possibly missed a few things while reading) was rather uncalled for and mostly untrue.  I really don’t care if you decide to shit on UT (if anything he deserves it, as long as it’s not done through mischaracterization), but looking down on the rest of the fandom collectively when a good part of it had a lot of debates about this subject precisely was just unfair. 

I’m looking at intention and necessity.

Sebastian is like a lion that needs to eat a gazelle to survive.  Does that make the lion “evil” and deserving of “losing” and therefore starvation?

I look at Undertaker, who has free will to do as he pleases and who decides to set in motion a chain of events which led to 1000+ innocent people dying, who mutilated corpses, actions which even a demon found disgusting.  Who then threw Ciel over a balcony, and a demon had to save his life, and later wreaked havoc on a boy’s school.

Eating Ciel’s soul is repayment for Sebastian lending Ciel his power for 3+ years.  He never would’ve been able to do the things he’s done as Watchdog without Sebastian.  And he would’ve been dead many times over without Sebastian, including being sacrificed by the cultists from their very first meeting.  But, no, he escaped from that alive.  It’s a steep price, but he got the power he wanted to reinvent himself from the weak, powerless child he was.

Based on that, I’ve picked which of the two deserves to “win” at the end of the story.

I’ve seen many bloggers talking about how UT is sad and tragic and lonely for living so long, etc., etc.

Other than myself and two other people, I don’t see any bloggers standing up for Sebastian.  Exactly as it was on the forums.  No, he’s always blamed for manipulating OC, for wanting his soul (which he needs to survive) for being evil, and so forth.  He even gave OC a choice to make the contract.

None of it matters anyway, because it looks like we’re getting the “Queen is the villain” ending from the anime.

I agree with half your points and half not.

So I’ll first establish what I agree with you on.

True, Undertaker is responsible for the majority, if not all the deaths on the Campania concerning his experiment, and yes, he had the intention of letting them loose as based on the quote you provided. No matter much of a fangirl I am, that fact has already been proven via canon.

As for Sebastian, yes, he does need to survive, and yes, your analogy is correct. True, he did give OurCiel a choice, but I believe it’s not without manipulation of some kind.

Here is where we disagree.

Yes, OurCiel forfeited his soul of his own choice, but Sebastian raised him, and you can clearly see influences of Sebastian’s treatment based on how treats people. There’s too many to point out all, but a few are his attitudes and reactions to certain situations. He’s learned to be cruel and vicious at some points, yet maintains his “innocence”, that is being merciful and kind, which is extremely interesting for a demon to see in a contractor, hence Sebastian’s interest in OurCiel and his over-protectiveness as a demon for him.

You believing that the lion as evil or not is all based on perspective and opinion. Sebastian is a demon, and demons are evil, whether or not they “help”people because ultimately their souls end up in Hell. Your analogy is correct, but influences of Sebastian convincing OurCiel to make the contract can be seen in chapter 137. He clearly shocks OurCiel with the reality of sacrificing his brother multiple times as a reminder of the sacrifice made for Sebastian’s existing there in the first place. Clearly, he could’ve gone at any point, but he was waiting for OurCiel to break. Whether Chapter 137 or any future chapters confirm that is up to debate, but working with what I have, no matter the situation, Sebastian is still evil given his nature.

As for Undertaker’s apparently “tragic past” since yes he had to commit suicide in order to be a shinigami, yes, he’s lonely, but he’s making a conscious effort of trying to rescue OurCiel from Sebastian. It can be seen here below:

Chapter 24

Chapter 64

and chapter 84

You misinterpreted Undertaker’s actions of throwing Ciel off the balcony because he was testing the demon’s ability to save Ciel in any situation. Chapter 84 repeats the same idea as shown below:

Chapter 64

Chapter 84

Undertaker clearly cares for the well-being of OurCiel’s soul, and how much of that may be due to the past Earl is unknown and has yet to be proven aside from his grief at his death.

Until then, I clearly believe that Undertaker is still working on a way to save OurCiel from Sebastian although it may appear differently to you just for the sake of saving his soul. This doesn’t mean that it excuses his actions on the Campania whatsoever, mind you.

Uhh....you do realize you’re proving my point about people defending Undertaker, right?   You are overlooking his actions under the assumption that you somehow know he cares for the well-being of Ciel.

There’s no reason why UT can’t be an agent of chaos acting for no purpose at all, or acting for his own benefit or for the benefit of another.  You’re assuming a binary choice of either UT is “good” or “bad.”  The same with Sebastian.

A lioness may be evil to the POV of a gazelle, but to the lioness’s cubs, she is the reason they continue to exist.

Did anyone consider that perhaps Sebastian might even, oh, I don’t know...let CIel go from the contract?  Or that the contract may be null given that RC is now alive?  Or that some other outcome may happen?  Or maybe even this: OC has power, he got to exact his revenge--which is what he choose--and, being an honorable person, he lets Sebastian take his soul as a fair payment for Sebastian’s services, just like the end of Season 1.  It seems a bit unfair to Sebastian’s character to want him to be so flat and undeveloped that he’s nothing more than an agentless entity of evil who has the simple motivation of taking Ciel’s soul and that’s it.  There have been hints to a little something different about him--like the fact that supposedly he’s been starving for the past three years and has yet to take Ciel’s soul.  But anyway.

Sebastian barely caught Ciel on that balcony.  He had to launch himself forward in the air, and caught Ciel’s fingertips by mere inches.  Sebastian was wounded and could have missed.  What if he didn’t make it and Ciel went splat?  That was a huge risk to take.

Let’s not even consider Campania for the moment.  How about this: was it right for RC to be unnaturally resurrected into an aggressive form of himself that wound up having Agni killed and driving Prince Soma insane?  How exactly does this help OC again?  How is this “looking out for Ciel’s soul?”  I can’t really think of any way this benefits OCiel, given how horrified and distraught he’s been over the last few chapters.

And a very big question: where was Undertaker when Vincent and Rachel were murdered?  Where was he when the twins were sold into the cult?  If he really is so protective of the twins’ wellbeing, wouldn’t Uncle Undertaker have teleported in and saved them from being tortured by a bunch of crazed cultists?  If I remember correctly, he was even at the mansion before the party...so where did he go?

Or, perhaps...Undertaker is that calm-faced man under the who sat there and watched it all.  He does bear a bit of a resemblance to both the knife-wielder and the principal from the Weston arc.