The Informed Pagan

naxinas asked: When and how was Loki first associated with Kaen and fire? I know that it's​ kind of a murky topic, so honestly, I'm more just curious as to what everyone's​ opinion is. I have no clue myself but I like hearing the thoughts of other devotees.

theemperorsfeather:

lokeanwelcomingcommittee:

In terms of the rune Cen, it’s worth pointing out that only the Anglo-Saxon rune poem associates it with fire. The others associate it with disease. So associating Cen with fire in a Norse context is already kinda iffy to begin with.But there really isn’t any solid evidence for a connection between Loki and fire before Jacob Grimm. Based on a theory that has since been disproven, he conflated Loki with Logi, the god of fire, who is explicitly a separate figure in the lore. Logi even beats Loki in an eating contest in one myth. (Here’s an excellent thread that goes into this distinction further.) 

But Wagner used Grimm’s scholarship when writing his immensely popular Ring Cycle, which, up until recently, remained many people’s first introduction to Norse myth. He too combined Loki with Logi, and took other artistic liberties with the Nibelungenlied as well. People ran with Wagner’s version of things, kind of like how many people today run with Marvel’s version of things. And since then, there have been a ton of fiery depictions of Loki floating around that pop culture continues to perpetuate.

There’s arguably a little pre-19th-century evidence for the fire symbolism, such as the Snaptun stone and medieval folklore about the Ash Lad, but both of those are kind of iffy. We don’t know for sure that the Snaptun Stone depicts Loki and not just some random smiling dude with stylized teeth and a killer mustache, and we don’t know how closely medieval folklore reflects beliefs from back in the Viking Age. While it’s not a perfect comparison due to differing technology, etc., how well can you really say you know the folklore from your region 500 years ago? And how much of what you do know was actually passed down from your family as opposed to something you had to actively seek out and study?

But some modern writers like Dagulf Loptson have still taken the fire thing and run with it, trying to argue that Loki was historically seen as a god of sacrificial flame, derived from the same place as Agni in Vedic religion. But…this just isn’t sound methodology. Academics are really reluctant to assume you can trust stuff from medieval Scandinavia to reflect pre-Christian Scandinavia. We definitely can’t go by something 2000 years older on an entirely different continent. Furthermore, Egil’s Saga calls Odin, not Loki, the guardian of sacrificial fire. So if anything the lore comes closer to contradicting that theory.

But all that said, Loki does indeed represent a lot of the same things that we use fire to represent nowadays. He has, well, a fiery personality, lively and passionate and hot-tempered. He’s driven to create change, both creative and destructive. He makes room for the new by getting rid of the old. It’s quite possible that he leverages this modern symbolism for his own ends.

So there’s nothing wrong with associating Loki with fire or using it as a symbol in your practice. It’s just inaccurate to treat those associations as attested pre-Christian beliefs.

- Mod E

My association with Cen and Loki is more along the lines of looking at what the torch in the rune poem (Anglo-Saxon) can do for you that isn’t about burning things - illuminate something, see more clearly, gain more insight about, etc. When Cen comes up in readings I do, it is usually that sort of reference, not burning things.

Tagged: lokigodsheathenrypaganism