Avatar

I don't think that means what you think it means

@thoughtsformtheuniverse / thoughtsformtheuniverse.tumblr.com

somebody let me into grad school and now i'm studying dry oceanography. she/her in the way sailing ships are she/her. secretly 2.5 encyclopedias in a trench-coat that want to go to space
Avatar

I am once again thinking about digging holes

It's so fucked up that digging a bunch of holes works so well at reversing desertification

I hate that so much discourse into fighting climate change is talking about bioenginerring a special kind of seaweed that removes microplastics or whatever other venture-capital-viable startup idea when we have known for forever about shit like digging crescent shaped holes to catch rainwater and turning barren land hospitable

Avatar
Community Label: Mature: Sexual Themes
Avatar
foone

(amazingly this has nothing to do with that humanpetguy post I just replied to)

one of my favorite fetish worldbuilding tropes, because of how fucking dumb and unreasonable it is, is the Federal Department of Kinky Shit.

It's the very specific thing that happens where it turns out in your setting, there's a Government Agency that does Kinky Shit.

Like you gotta go to the Big Testing Center when you turn 21 to find out if you're gonna be turned into a ponygirl, by the USDHA: The United States Department of Human Agriculture.

or maybe you get a letter in the mail, and oh no! your number has come up in the Slut Lottery. What's that mean? Why is there a slut lottery? NO TIME TO EXPLAIN, IT'S JUST HOW IT IS! GET TO SLUTTIN'

It kinda makes me want to write one of these stories just so I can try to write a backstory that explains WHY IN THE FUCK their world is like this and no one seems to complain.

It's basically the same trope as "medieval village sacrifices a maiden every year to The Dragon" but modernized. Now there's a Government Agency in charge of Feeding Virgins To Winged Reptiles, and everyone is just fine with that. Apparently the supreme court said it was okay, or we had a constitutional amendment to give the government the power to turn young adults into meals for wyverns. How did that get ratified, anyway? You seriously got 38 states to vote in favor of taking citizens and feeding them to a monster?

This would almost be a commentary on the heartlessness of the draft except they're clearly way too horny about it. It's like instead of saying "the draft is like a monster that eats our children and we just smile and wave the flag", they're saying "the draft is a monster that eats our children and I'm masturbating to it"

Community Label: Mature

Sexual themes

Avatar
Avatar
fox-bright

Lately all my nightmares are about time travel.

I dream that I wake up and I’m nine years old again.  Before the bullet, accidentally fired from a gun my father should have never treated like a toy.  Before the worst of my parents’ fighting started, back when sometimes Mom would still dance in the kitchen. Even in my dreams that’s not early enough to save everyone.  Even in a dream that starts as a good dream, it’s a matter of triage.  I can’t save Mom, already becoming a monster (maybe a monster already, and little me was too innocent to tell). I don’t even try to save Dad, who was already the man who’d grow furious if my mother talked about cutting her hair, the man who would go on and on about how he fell in love with her because she wore knee socks and looked like his idea of a Japanese schoolgirl. In the dream, when my sister goes in for her latest stint at the ER, I ask the doctor if he knows what Marfan syndrome is. In the dream, I manipulate my parents in every way I can.  I tell my mother, God came to me in a vision and told me where she needs to invest.  I pepper the narrative with enough information about the coming months that eventually she believes me.  There’s eventually enough money for the doctors, there’s enough money to keep the heat on all winter. Enough money for the dentist, and for therapists. But she trusts me not at all, and is as cold as ever she was, pinching my narrow belly.  She calls another brown girl a dog, and I snap at her; in my dream I argue with my mother from the day I wake up as a nine-year-old, and she hits me. Dad doesn’t beat me less in the dream than he ddid in real life, because for all that I have the knowledge of a woman in her thirties, I have the hormones of a child, and he was after all always a small-hearted, insecure man.  But in my dream I’m not afraid because I know he’d never kill me, so I can do what I have to do even if it means I limp.

In my dream, sometimes when I turn fifteen or so, I buy a phone card and I use it to dial Johnny’s phone number just so I can hear him pick up and say hello. He’ll be with Theresa then, probably, and I wouldn’t ever try to change his path, even in this dream where I was changing everything else.  I practice kata late at night, in the yard where no one can see, so that when I turn eighteen and escape to college I can find my Sensei again.  I’ll tell him I practiced a little as a child, I’ll dodge the subject.  In the dream, kendo keeps me sane, just like it has done in waking life.

In my dream I never go to England, I don’t have the time. And so my ex is never my ex, and never comes here, never marries an American, never has that baby, and I feel guilt at the excision of that life from the universe. But how could I go be with him, child that he was then, when I’m by then nearly fifty years old in a nineteen-year-old’s body?

In my dream all I know about the world falls like dominoes, and I stop being able to predict what’s going to happen.  I make a payphone call to Oklahoma City early one morning, and then in September of the year I graduate high school I make one to New York; that’s all I can do.  I do everything I can, and it’s not enough, and I am exhausted, and there’s Johnny’s voice, quiet and crackling on the Nineties phone line after dinner every six months or so when I allow myself the weakness, saying “Hello? Is anyone there?”

And I can’t say yes. I can’t say In a few years, in a few years I will be because I don’t even know if that’s true anymore.  I don’t know who I’ll be. I just listen to him breathing on the line for one beat, two beats, and then I hang up.

And then I wake up. And I look at the flower lights hanging from branches on my bedroom ceiling, and I listen to the cat murring on one side of me and Johnny breathing quiet on the other. And I ache so comprehensively that it’s hard to tell how much of it is hurting for the life in the dream, and how much of it is hurting for the life I’ve lived.  And I turn over, and I try to go back to sleep.

Avatar

Ok one thing I keep seeing in dragon media that kinda bothers me is the "dragons are fireproof everywhere but inside, so if you shoot fire in there they'll die" because like. Dragons shoot fire out of their mouths!! If there's anywhere they should be even MORE fireproof it's on their inside!!

Avatar
Avatar
prokopetz

Do you happen to know the origin of the fantasy trope in which a deity's power directly corresponds to the number of their believers / the strength of their believers' faith?

I only know it from places like Discworld and DnD that I'm fairly confident are referencing some earlier source, but outside of Tinkerbell in Peter Pan, I can't think of of any specific work it might've come from, 20th-c fantasy really not being my wheelhouse.

Thank you!

Avatar

That's an interesting question. In terms of immediate sources, I suspect, but cannot prove, that the trope's early appearances in both Dungeons & Dragons and Discworld are most immediately influenced by the oeuvre of Harlan Ellison – his best-known work on the topic, the short story collection Deathbird Stories, was published in 1975, which places it very slightly into the post-D&D era, though most of the stories it contains were published individually earlier – but Ellison certainly isn't the trope's originator. L Sprague de Camp and Fritz Leiber also play with the idea in various forms, as does Roger Zelazny, though only Zelazny's earliest work is properly pre-D&D.

Hm. Off the top of my head, the earliest piece of fantasy fiction I can think of that makes substantial use of the trope in its recognisably modern form is A E van Vogt's The Book of Ptath; it was first serialised in 1943, though no collected edition was published until 1947. I'm confident that someone who's more versed in early 20th Century speculative fiction than I am could push it back even earlier, though. Maybe one of this blog's better-read followers will chime in!

(Non-experts are welcome to offer examples as well, of course, but please double-check the publication date and make sure the work you have in mind was actually published prior to 1974.)

Avatar
Origins of the "gods strength comes from their worshipers" trope?
I always liked the depiction of gods and worshipers as a sort of symbiotic relationship. Especially the idea of older gods whos power has waned because they are all but forgotten. It is something that has almost become the default relationship in modern fantasy.
Is this a modern phenomenon though, or does it have roots in older mythologies? I'm no scholar, but I don't recall much about Greek or Norse gods being particularly dependent on worshipers for instance. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can enlighten me!

My favorite example from there is Tinkerbell, but it also points to “Gods Need Prayer Badly” on TVTropes

Most of the responses in that Reddit thread are talking about the idea of gods deriving physical sustenance from sacrifices made in their honour, rather than the modern literary trope of gods gaining their miraculous powers from the strength of their worshippers' faith; the former is, of course, an ancient notion, but uncritically conflating it with the latter may result in misleading conclusions.

Avatar
jadagul

I had been thinking that in response to the original prompt, because it's an interesting difference, right? Modern religions often focus on orthodoxy, believing the right things; but ancient polytheisms didn't care about that. They cared about orthopraxy, which is doing the right things.

Ancient polytheistic religions were fairly functional and transactional. They didn't spend much if any time thinking about "belief"; at least in the Mediterranean, atheism basically didn't exist, and the closest you got was believing the gods didn't care about you. (Bret Devereaux writes about this, and other differences between D&D religion and real historical polytheisms, here.)

Cultures do ritual sacrifice because "it works". (Yes, it doesn't "work" in reality, but it "works" in the sense that the cultures are performing these sacrifices and surviving, therefore the sacrifices are at least compatible with surviving as a culture.) And that comes before the theory, honestly; but the purpose of ritual is to make things happen. They're tools. And "just as a hammer and a wrench do not very much care if you think the ‘right things’ about hammers and wrenches, so the ritual does not care if you ‘believe’ in it, or have the ‘correct’ doctrine of it, so long as – like the wrench and the hammer – you use the tool properly."

And then the sacrifice is an exchange.

Do ut des is Latin and it means, “I give, so that you might give.”  ... The key here is the concept of exchange. The core of religious practice is thus a sort of bargain, where the human offers or promises something and (hopefully) the god responds in kind, in order to effect a specific outcome on the world.

So then we can ask, what was the theory for why this stuff worked? And that varied.

Now, why do the gods want these things? That differs, religion to religion. In some polytheistic systems, it is made clear that the gods require sacrifice and might be diminished, or even perish, without it. That seems to have been true of Aztec religion, particularly sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl; it is also suggested for Mesopotamian religion in the Atrahasis where the gods become hungry and diminished when they wipe out most of humans and thus most of the sacrifices taking place. Unlike Mesopotamian gods, who can be killed, Greek and Roman gods are truly immortal – no more capable of dying than I am able to spontaneously become a potted plant – but the implication instead is that they enjoy sacrifices, possibly the taste or even simply the honor it brings them (e.g. Homeric Hymn to Demeter 310-315).

Now you can see how e.g. the Aztec take relates to the "gods need belief" thing, but it's also very different, because the Aztec gods needed sacrifices. They don't care about the belief, they care about the stuff and the actions.

So the "gods need belief" thing is sort of a weird fusion of ancient polytheisms, which posited gods who needed or wanted sacrifice, with modern religions, with their focus on belief and orthodoxy. So it can basically only happen in a modern-invented pagan or polytheistic religion—which is, presumably, why we see them popping up in mid-century sword and sorcery stuff. It's a vague recreation of the shape of ancient polytheisms, but filtered through a very modern take on what religion is and how it works.

The short story "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Man_on_the_Subway" by Isaac Asimov and Frederick Pohl was originally written in 1941 and fairly explicitly posits gods powers as fueled by followers' belief, but it does so in a way that feels to me like it's exploring an idea from other fiction. So I doubt it's the first example, but being originally written even earlier than the previously cited A E van Vogt story (although it wasn't published until 1950), it might be useful to look at Pohl's other early stuff or extant work he might have been drawing on.

Avatar
kamikasei

Well that's handy - someone actually just asked Neil Gaiman and got an answer which cites Deathbird Stories as expected, but also a book from 1888.

Interesting. I haven't read Richard Garnett's The Twilight of the Gods, so I can't personally speak to where it falls on the "gods derive physical sustenance from sacrifices made in their honour" versus "gods derive their miraculous powers from the strength of their worshippers' faith" continuum – it'd certainly be a considerably earlier example of the latter than I'd previously been aware of if it qualifies.

Avatar

I really do think that Vetinari is set up to be a partial authorial stand-in. He's 90% character, but that remaining 9.9999% is just slightly too knowledgeable, too good at surviving, too sharp, too sure. (Too disinterested, too incorruptible, too inexplicably noble for a true tyrant.)

Which is why I think the Discworld series really needs a novel where Vetinari keeps getting older and older, and no one wants to ask what happens next.

Avatar

Thud!

My Tattoo Knows What You Did In the Dark by Fall Out Boy

  • Feet of Clay - “A Little Less Sixteen Candles, a Little More Dorfl” by Fall Out Boy
  • Thief of Time - “The Temporal Tunnel of Love” by Fall Out Boy
  • The Last Continent - “Bursar, We’re Going Down (Under)” by Fall Out Boy
  • Wyrd Sisters - “We Were Witches from the Start (The King Is Dead)” by Fool Out Boy
  • Nanny Ogg’s Cookbook - “The Pros and Cons of Eating” by Fall Out Boy
  • The Wee Free Men - “You’re Crashing, But You’re No Land Under Wave” by Fall Out Boy
  • A Hat Full Of Sky - “It’s Not a Side Effect of the Feegles, I Am Thinking It Must Be Mind Control” by Fall Out Boy
  • Wintersmith - “Grand Theft Autumn, Summer & Spring/Where Is Your Horse Pendant” (acoustic version) by Fall Out Boy
  • Mort - “Love, Sex, Death” by Fall Out Boy
  • Equal Rites - “Witches and Wizards Get Stitches and Whoops Here Comes the Dungeon Dimension” by Fall Out Boy
  • Night Watch - “I’m Like a Shipwright with the Way I’m Always Trying to Get You Keeled (Carcer & Vimes)” by Fall Out Boy
  • Sourcery - “From Now On, Don’t Use Sourcery” by Fall Out Boy
  • Monstrous Regiment - “"Tell Those Socks They Just Made My List of Things to Use to Infiltrate the Army Today” by Fall Out Boy
  • Where’s My Cow? - “It’s Hard to Say “Moo”, When That’s Not My Cow” by Fall Out Boy
  • Raising Steam - “Reinventing the Train to Run Myself Over” by Fall Out Boy
  • Interesting Times - “Disloyal Order of You’ve Got Nothing to Lose But Your Water Buffaloes” by Fall Out Boy
  • Interesting Times - “Catch Me If You Can/Proclamation of Your Wife is a Big Hippo” by Fall Out Boy, feat. Rincewind
  • Hogfather - “Yule Shoot Your Eye Out” by Fall Out Boy, feat. Mr. Teatime
  • Johnny and the Dead - “The (After) Life of the Party” by Fall Out Boy
  • Carpe Jugulum - “Count de Magpyr Can’t Lose (But I’m Gunna Give ‘Im a Cuppa)” by Fall Out Boy
  • The Truth - “My Pen Is the Best Kind of Weapon” by Fall Out Boy
  • Soul Music - “I (Pretty Much) Saved the Life of Someone In The Band With Rocks In and All I Got Was This Stupid Song Written About Me” by Fall Out Boy, feat. Susan Sto Helit
  • The Last Hero - “Homesick at Space Camp” by Fall Out Boy
  • Lords and Ladies - “I Reckon I’ve Got a Horseshoe and a Bad Idea That Says You Should Bugger Off (Midsummer Night’s Song)” by Fall Out Boy
  • Faust Eric - “Our Lawyer Made Us Change the Name of This Book So We Wouldn’t Get Sued” by Fall Out Boy
  • Maskerade - “Don’t You Know Who I Think I Am?” by Fall Out Boy
  • Making Money - “The (Lipwigged) Gold Standard” by Fall Out Boy
  • Small Gods - “The Patron Saint of Turtles and This One Guy Called Brutha” by Fall Out Boy
  • Snuff - “G.I.N.A.S.F.S. (Goblin is Not a Synonym for Shitty” by Fall Out Boy
  • Wings - “U.F.O. to the Touch, Nome On the Inside” by Fall Out Boy
  • Moving Pictures - “Moving Pictures” by Fall Out Boy (well, duh)
  • Reaper Man - “Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying (Do Your Part to Save the World and Stop Wearing Crowns)” by Fall Out Boy
  • Men at Arms - “Alpha Dog” by Fall Out Boy, feat. Gaspode & Big Fido
  • The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents - “Rat a Tat” by Fall Out Boy
  • Unseen Academicals - “Sophomore Sports or Comeback of the Orc” by Fall Out Boy
  • The Fifth Elephant - “A Scone Together” by Fall Out Boy
  • Jingo - “This Ain’t a Crime Scene, It’s an Arms Race” by Fall Out Boy “Yes, It Bloody Well is a Crime Scene” by His Grace, Sir Samuel Vimes, Duke of etc.
  • Going Postal - “Headfirst Slide into the Post Office on a Bad Escape Attempt” by Fall Out Moist
  • The Shepherd’s Crown - “Roundworld’s Now Waiting (For the Last Book from a Mourned Dead Man)” by F-fall Out B… *loud sobbing*
Avatar
Avatar
kalichnikov

Thinking about the, possibly apocryphal, story of a theologian asking scientist and biologist J. B. S. Haldane what the various species of animals in the world might tell us about the mind of the creator, to which he responded the divine must have "an inordinate fondness for beetles." I think we should do more theology like this. Let's ask some organic chemists, discrete mathematicians, and civil engineers what their areas of expertise might tell us about the mind of the divine

Avatar

Not "It's a product of it's time" as a way to excuse its problematic undertones but rather "it's a product of it's time" to say that the issues it tackles were relevant then and its stances that now seem milquetoast were radical then, and that heavy handed, cheesy driving home of those viewpoints was sometimes necessary, and our acceptance and normalization of those viewpoints is in large part because of media like it normalizing those viewpoints and imagery, and watching it in the modern day turns into a loving study of history of the masses and public opinion

Yes this is about the original star trek

broke: it's a product of its time

Bespoke: Our Time Is A Product Of It

Avatar

made me think of this

[id: x/twitter qrt from user styloshka that says "I read a forum post about art once, that it's a product of the dialectic between the effort of the artist and the friction of the medium. You push on the thing and the thing pushes back on you, it has its own voice. The weight of a piano key, the tension of a guitar string." original post from user colleen_daves says "Don't you want to skip over the mindless drudgery that is making art?" I do six stand embroidery and break like 10 needles a day, would I prefer that activity didn't hurt my hands and make me angry? Sure. But that's what makes having the finished piece after so worth it to me."]

You are using an unsupported browser and things might not work as intended. Please make sure you're using the latest version of Chrome, Firefox, Safari, or Edge.