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reblogged

see it’s super convenient to lump everyone into “pro Israel” and “pro Hamas” camps as opposed to “pro Palestinian genocide” and “anti Palestinian genocide” because it implies the colonialist nation state propped up by imperialist western is in fact a legitimate one with the right to defend itself as opposed to being a fascist apartheid theocracy who’s only purpose is to be an ally in the region. If the west was so concerned about the Jewish people having a home after Holocaust, why didn’t they take them in? Because you see, it was never actually about the Jewish people. They could’ve been catholic or Muslim. all that mattered was having a persecuted culture to build around.

After all, it’s a fallacy to say to all Jews support Israel, especially if they’ve never lived there, let alone been there. It’s easy to chalk up anti-Zionist sentiment as being anti-Semitic, even when Jews themselves are speaking out against Israel. No true Scotsman fallacy baby! That’s why it’s important to separate the two, and you fall for the classic propaganda that Jews control the world secretly when the reality is much more mundane, congrats you’re fucking stupid.

  1. Considering the fairly high prices western countries have paid for assisting Israel, from direct cost of support to the oil embargo to generally damaged relations with Middle Eastern countries, seeing Israel as existing because of western countries magicking up a fascist apartheid theocracy as their local useful ally seems to be putting things backwards! From a hard-nosed view of maximizing US power and world influence, it might well prefer Israel not exist!
  2. I'd agree that we should've just imported all the Jews to the US after WW2, the US would be better for it. Acting like the Middle East would be a paradise if not for Israel seems optimistic seeing how good the locals are at running their countries into the ground on their own terms.
  3. But that's not the world we live in. We live in one where plenty of Jews were born in Israel to Jewish parents born in Israel, and unless you're willing to commit to an "You must have X many generations in this land to ride" rule then it implies the people are going to have to find some other solution to the problem. Unless you want to argue exactly one set of land ownership rights are the Exactly Correct Ones and we should never change again, you're basically stuck with this conclusion.

4.

a) I don't see much objective criteria for deciding what states are legitimate and which ones aren't. But I do believe in classical liberal values, and for all of Israel's faults it's hard not say it's miles better than any other country in the region in governence and democratic terms.

b) If we poofed two islands into existence, and populated one with clones of the Israeli population and its political institutions, and the other with clones of the Palestinian population and Gaza's institutions, I think almost anyone would choose to live on the former and if they said otherwise I would probably not believe them.

Source: just trust me bro

Do you think Gaza's political institutions are an inspiration for us to emulate, or did you not know about the oil embargo?

no, but what I am saying is that situation is in fact, far more nuanced then what people like you think it is, especially from a historical context, and that the only reason why Israel exists because of the west, and in the grand scheme of things, aren’t much better in terms of being the only “only democracy in the Middle East” when it’s an apartheid state built on nationalism and religious fanaticism that displaced all sorts of people not just Palestinian Muslims.

Like do you just ignore the crimes committed by Israeli settlers, let alone the IDF because you don’t like Gaza’s politics? Are you even aware that Hamas is a direct response to Israeli imperialism?

Nothing ever just happens without a reason. To act like Hamas is this big bad boogeyman is a fallacy that ignores 70 years of history. Like for real educate yourself it’s not hard to look things up and piece things together.

I guess I can respect the audacity to flip from

the colonialist nation state propped up by imperialist western [sic] is in fact a legitimate one with the right to defend itself as opposed to being a fascist apartheid theocracy

to playing the nuance card.

I've certainly never said Israel is perfect or without fault. But blaming it for all of Palestinians' problem seems unfair. The vast majority of Middle Eastern governments suck to live under and always have, and that wasn't Israel's doing. So if we poofed away Israel and Palestinians got all the land I don't see much reason to think they'd make a paradise.

I’m not saying it would be paradise, but why should we support Israel? Why should support a genocide? There is no flip only that when you look at the grand scheme of things, Israel is nothing more than a extension of western power in a region that historically hates western powers.

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