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@gijane-7702

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isagrimorie

Because the whole Tuvix wank is rearing its head every week on Trek forums, I finally decided to rewatch this episode. I mostly avoided it because I am So Tired of the wank and how it's been relitigated for YEARS.

I was over it when it first popped up and I was even more over it with the way it's used as a bludgeon to promote 'psycho Janeway'.

But what's left out in the discussions is Kes's part in all of this, from the jump, Kes was troubled with the merging of Neelix and Tuvok, and anytime Tuvix tried to make advances, she just kept getting more uncomfortable.

(When Tuvix unconsciously touched Kes's shoulder, it looked like she had to consciously not flinch.)

To Tuvix's credit, he did give Kes space and respected her wishes but she was not happy with the whole merge because her relationship with Neelix and Tuvok is different.

We don't see the other people grieve but we see Kes's grief and confusion, which was shared by Janeway. But also, the moment the EMH had a solution to separate the two people in Tuvix, Harry jumped at the chance.

And he's already spent weeks with Tuvix.

The irony is that Janeway was coming around to thinking of Tuvix as an individual but the cure presented itself, but also as the Ship's Captain she has an obligation to care for her crew and absent or not that meant advocating for the two voices who couldn't speak up: Tuvok and Neelix.

Kes was the deciding factor. Kes made her plea to separate Neelix and Tuvok.

Kes was the biggest reason why Janeway decided to separate Tuvok from Neelix.

It was such a cop-out from the Doctor that he refused to do the procedure he made and pioneered. And forced Janeway to execute it instead.

Janeway is clearly not happy about the decision and she's caught between a rock and a hard place.

In Nothing Human Janeway verbalizes it.

"Any consequences of this decision will be my responsibility. Dismissed."

Janeway's constantly put into a wheelhouse of trolley problems, as the only high-ranking Starfleet officer, she is the final authority. In Nothing Human everyone is locked in an endless debate about the morality of using the Cardassians' methods to save B'Elanna's life. Meanwhile, the clock was running down to zero and B'Elanna could have died more.

(Honestly, the story should have been more B'Elanna, Doctor, and Janeway-centric than it was. Nothing Human is a weird episode. Especially since Seven was barely in it and seems to be the Acting Chief Engineer -- amusingly enough because the writers thought they killed Joe Carey between s2 and 3. Alas, poor Vorik, he's not getting any promotions either).

TLDR: Janeway is constantly living through what the Doctor of Doctor Who is living through. Or as the 12th Doctor once said: "Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones, but you still have to choose."

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rowark

The Comparison to Nothing Human is an interesting one, I think.

In Tuvix, Janeway really had to figure out what Neelix and Tuvok would ultimately want, to decide the right thing to do, and while it was a difficult decision to make, she made it pretty quickly because there really was only one correct answer. Neelix and Tuvok were not there to speak for themselves, and neither of them consented to be merged into one person. Kes would lose her partner and Tuvok's family would lose a husband and father, all as a result of a transporter accident that was reversible.

The difficult aspect was that Janeway had to actively choose to end a life, in order to save two others. It was the right choice, but also one almost no one on that ship would have been able to make, and that's why she's captain.

In Nothing Human, she's actually faced with a more difficult decision, because she knows what B'Elanna wants, so there's no speculation there... there's no wiggle room at all. She was somewhat protected in her Tuvix decision because she had to guess what Tuvok and Neelix would want, and if she were wrong, no one could really fault her for that, because how could she know?

But in Nothing Human, the choice is does she honour B'Elanna's wishes and let her die, or does she go against them and let her live? The right choice is much less clear here. With Tuvix, separating him was denying him autonomy, but allowing him autonomy would deny Tuvok and Neelix autonomy. With B'Elanna, she's taking away her autonomy because she doesn't want to let her die. Is that the right choice?

A patient has the right to refuse medical treatment. She took that right away from B'Elanna, and B'Elanna had every right to be pissed off about it afterward.

Ultimately, debating on whether or not it was ethical to use the Cardassian's methods to save B'Elanna was irrelevant. It wasn't the right discussion to be having, because B'Elanna had already made a decision for herself. The real debate wasn't on whether or not the Cardassian's methods were ethical, it was whether or not using them against B'Elanna's express wishes was ethical.

It wasn't.

And what I find most interesting is that Janeway was not actually listening to the arguments the crew was making in good faith. Her mind was made up. That much was clear the moment that Tom was like "you're not actually going to let her die?" and Janeway didn't even hesitate with her answer (I can't remember the exact wording, but either way, it was clear her mind was made up and she wasn't not actually considering any other option).

And that's not to say it was the wrong choice, necessarily. I personally think it was the right choice, for two reasons. The first is obviously that they need her. The choice to let her live or die impacts more than just B'Elanna, as long as they are on Voyager, stranded in the Delta Quadrant. If Janeway had chosen to honour her wishes, she also would be indirectly choosing to kill Voyager's Chief Engineer, and to take someone away from the crew, who was vital to their survival.

The second one, and this is one I really wish the show had gone into, is that by overruling her, Janeway is making a choice for B'Elanna that she never would have been able to make for herself. It's similar to Tuvok's reasoning in Prime Factors, he goes behind Janeway's back to do something that he knows she couldn't do, because of her ethics and her position, but something he truly believed needed to be done.

B'Elanna would never be able to live with herself if she'd made the choice herself to be saved by the Cardassian research, but that doesn't mean she wanted to die. Janeway making the choice for her, absolves B'Elanna of any guilt.

It's also interesting that Janeway says she will accept the consequences of that decision, and then she doesn't. At all. She basically tells B'Elanna to get over it, and points out that she's the Captain and it was her call.

And I think that part is very telling. I try not to write anything off as just bad or inconsistent writing, if I can come up with an alternate explanation, and I think that scene can be explained as Janeway being unable to deal with her own guilt, for going against B'Elanna's wishes. She needs B'Elanna to get over it and accept her choice, so that she doesn't have to grapple with it.

When she separated Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok immediately confirmed that she made the right choice, and she didn't need to grapple with the ethics of it anymore.

B'Elanna, on the other hand, made it quite clear that she was not happy and she didn't think it was the right choice, and I really wish they could have delved into that a little more, tbh.

And that also makes it so bizarre to me, why people won't drop the Tuvix debate. The episode made it clear that Janeway made the right choice. There's no debate left at that point. Janeway went against Tuvix's wishes, not knowing what Neelix and Tuvok wanted. By the end of the episode, the audience knows what Neelix and Tuvok want, so in arguing that Janeway shouldn't have separated Tuvix, they are arguing that Neelix and Tuvok should be sacrificed, despite knowing they didn't want to be merged. It's absolutely insane argument to make, when you have all the facts.

If any episode leaves an open-ended moral debate, it's Nothing Human. Was Janeway right to go against B'Elanna's wishes or not? An argument can be made from both sides, and we also know that the two people who have a stake in this (Janeway and B'Elanna) do not agree, and the show never actually resolved it in a way that made it clear which side they wanted to present as being right.

Like, I believe Janeway made the right choice, but I also believe B'Elanna has every right to be pissed off about it. It's a way more complicated moral debate than Tuvix is, and the episode ends with both Janeway and B'Elanna being pretty unwilling to consider the other person's stance.

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gijane-7702

It has nothing to do with Tuvix. It's about the fact Janeway is female and in charge. Even from female fans. Which is sad.

#star trek voyager#kathryn janeway#tuvix
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prettypinkdork

Based on the silence and the number of people I know have been spoiled for Prodigy season 2 my J/C assumption is that whatever happens with them is good but far from spectacular

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quirkette100

I have this gut feeling too…

I wonder if the show deliberately avoids giving them a label. It would be the easiest way to keep everyone happy- imply there’s something there but never confirm it. It would also be familiar ground for Star Trek. 🙄

We’ve heard it’s “powerful” and “moving” from the below but to be honest I’m beginning to lower my expectations. I’ve been burned before.

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‘Star Trek: Prodigy’ Producers Talk Janeway/Chakotay, Season 2 Legacy Connections, And Season 3 Hopes
More details from the STLV 2023 'Prodigy' panel.
TrekMovie.com
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prettypinkdork

Good spoiler etiquette is one thing but I fear there just isn’t much to spoil. Maybe it’s implied they get together but it’s nothing to justify the hype and the rest of the season is good enough that people feel bad about complaining.

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gijane-7702

Who wants spoilers? Come sit by me 🤣

#star trek prodigy#janeway x chakotay#spoilers
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