If he has internalized homophobia then why he has no problem telling Dave he used to date a guy? Like, as you said, he cares about his reputation, and we know he really wanted Dave to like him, so that prolly means he was quite careful with what he could or couldn't say in front of him, specifically after he discovered that Bro abused him. So what I'm trying to say, if he cared about being gay, I think he would have avoided telling him he dated Jake? Or at least give it a second thought? I don't see what's the problem with Dirk being against labels, he seems that type of person, he prolly thinks that makes him more intellectual or some stupid thing like that

Hmmm thats not exactly what I said. I don't think Dirk has internalized homophobia so much as <he's afraid of the outside reception to the fact that he's gay, and how people will perceive him based on it>. Dirk knows that he's gay. We know Dirk is aware of that since he was at least 13, because he's already throwing undeniably romantic advances at Jake by then to test the waters. Dirk isn't in cutesy denial about anything here, he doesn't have the time or luxury for that. His problem is more that once you state 'Yes I Am Gay' as a definition of your character, that comes with a Lot of historical baggage and expectations- and from dirk's perspective, both the expectations and historical baggage are something so incredibly divorced from his reality in a future where no human society exists that he's waaaayyyyyy too careful of making that association. It could potentially bust the image he's trying to project.

Again, Dirk's thing is performance. Esp the performance of masculinity. He is the one homestuck character that truly, genuinely, wholeheartedly cares about putting up an image of what it means To Be Masc. He does this because he likes it. He's not forced to do it, he's not under societal pressure to do it, he's not whinning about how much he hates it, he's not doing it at gunpoint; this is a set of parameters he came up with for himself, even in complete isolation. They are a statement and holy boypledge he's making.

He thinks it is Very Cool, and he would like it if you thought it was Very Cool Too (especially if that transmits an image of how strong and reliable he "totally" is). And, again, when you think about our early 2000-10's context of GAYNESS, because homestuck is an extremely time-bound comic, the image "being gay" summons is... really not the one I described above. We're talking about gay men being stereotyped as catty & cowardly & effeminate, about the constant punchlines around 'useless fairies' (a term that was used to refer specifically *to* feminine, submissive, oft gender-transgressive gays ) not incidentally, Dirk's godtier is revealed to him in-comic through a drawing that depicts him as a fairy. He's immediately put off by it. Dirk and Jake's godtiers were called Fagtiers by more than a portion of the fandom. Relics of this are still high up on google images if you search for pictures of their godtiers, lol. Essentially, to admit to his gayness openly and broadly in that timeframe is to be stereotyped as something he doesn't entirely identify as, in an environment that is far from welcoming.

I am pretty open about reading Dirk as a trans man, and what I think is happening here is that together with Roxy's constant insinuations that Dirk Should Have Her Babies, Dirk is ultimately afraid that his claim to being a homosexual paints him as innately womanly. He either gets to be a man or he gets to love men. There's no middleground, or else these social features will cancel eachother out like pemdas. What we see in Homestuck is his haphazard attempt to keep both things intact. His courtship of Jake is only allowed if it is strictly masculine, if it seems like he has a semblance of control, if it looks like they are both just Dudes being Bros throwing it down like Fellow Action Men. This is harmful for Dirk and gives him extreme emotional constipation; not to speak of how tiring it is for Jake to try to keep up with this months-long improv game of Xtreme Axe Bodyspray Marathon when they could just... date. Jake really wouldn't mind if they decided to paint each other's nails or have stereotypical sleepovers or just chill out and have fun like Jane and Roxy are obviously doing. Jake would be fine with being soft so long as he's not being made fun of. But Dirk struggles with letting any sign of dangerous sensitivity show under the assumption that it will be read as a weakness, an inadmissible vulnerability in his set of armor.

Which becomes all the more relevant once you note that when Dirk's trying to convince Dave that he's not a threat and certainly not a monster, one of the first things he admits to is "I like men."

I saw you mentioning the princess bride in a post and it made me wonder both of what you think of the movie adaptation (as it was practically my entire childhood) and the references to it made in homestuck the comic and whether they serve any purpose to the text. I also wonder if you’ve seen the movie stardust from 2007 and what you think of. Like always, I love to read pretty much everything you write, whether analysing text on tumblr or your ao3 fics, thanks!

OK SO. I should have answered this MONTHS ago but I wanted to properly write down something and… that took a while! I'm sorry it was this long </3 Thank you for your patience! Now on to the meat of it:

These two stories definitely have a fond place in my heart. Early this year I read the original Stardust novel for the first time (then rewatched the movie due to brilliant childhood memories), and I gotta say I have a bit of a strange relationship with it since I did think the book was good, but not nearly as fun or engaging as the movie, and what the movie did to some underused characters-- particularly the ship captain, who is just the extreme blueprint for Jake Harley from tip to toes; BUT. I found out I really liked the book ending better.

The movie is a remix of the book, it takes a lot of the convoluted plots and streamlines them into something that ties together nicely, cuts out characters that don’t add much, & explores characters that were interesting in the original but never given enough time to do stuff. It’s not a masterpiece, there was definitely a scene in the middle where I got really tense and expected to see a violent hate crime happen, it definitely... aged badly in some places (repeated instances of ‘man in a dress’ jokes including the character I mentioned above), but it’s an entertaining movie. It’s got quirky fun dialogue from a time before that became a tryhard hollywood staple. Everyone loves a fetch quest fantasy romp! Most of all, me!

I think what I really liked from the book ending is that we’re shown how the main couple avoids the expectation of ruling the kingdom for actual decades, finding other paths to follow in their very young lives instead of immediately marrying and settling down. It had a very nice, peaceful, sort of pensive bittersweet ending about the star not being quite human. The movie changes how the story approaches immortality, and that's not inherently bad but it’s also not the same y'know. Generally I'd recommend the movie first thing but then add on that the book is worth going through for that different flavor characterization of the story, if you're up to it.

(This comparison also seems very apt, the director of the Stardust movie adaptation famously only convinced Gaiman that he'd be fit to adapt it because he wanted the movie to be "his Princess Bride".)

I love the princess bride movie.

I watched it way before I got around to reading the book and I *tend* to prefer the book version to the movie version 9 out of 10 times, HOWEVER... As far as adaptations go, I think The Princess Bride is a prime example for condensing a story so its heart remains even if a lot of the juicy book details didn't. It also utilizes its respective mediums really well! The PB Movie works because it tells a story through a Cinematic lens, focusing on a satire of the Hollywood romance formula, while the PB Book does the same through the application of literary farce to its greatest extent. It's a prolonged roast of the fantasy literary romance genre - but it's also dangerously genuine.

It is a book that presents itself as not only a narrative, but as a conversation between the reader and the ‘abridger’ of one other fictional text (from a made up writer) while tripling as a confessional for the real life frustrations of said ‘abridger’. A juggling feat that was undoubtedly only made possible because William Goldman, on top of being Princess Bride's original author, also worked as a professional scriptwriter. He wrote both the book and the movie adaptation, and he jokes about this by fully narrativizing himself as a character within the book's text. (And I’m sure this sounds familiar.)

The *medium* through which The Princess Bride is told is given emphasis when you compare where the story starts in each version, who is telling it, and precisely how it is told. This is going to be relevant for that HS comparison if you hang on for a second.

IN THE MOVIE:

(Where) The story begins with a kid sick in bed, and his visiting grandfather, who's planning to read him a book.

(Who) The aforementioned grandfather serves as our main narrator, with some skeptical commentary from the kid.

(How) We get intro montages to quickly establish characters, middle montages to stitch the story beats together, and some narrative interruptions to move scenes along, but aside from that the events of the fairytale roll on seamlessly with the assistance of the grandfather’s kindly voiceover.

It is a very straightforward take. We blur in and out of scenes with the benefit of contextless visuals - the audience is encouraged to fill in the gaps of "missing" information about the world/kingdom/mechanics with generic stock tropes, most of the book's Lore isn't even hinted at. The movie is a tongue-in-cheek subversion of twee romantic films and their inherent ridiculousness - but it's just as helplessly and wholeheartedly in love with the simplicity of the tropes it employs.

IN THE BOOK:

(Where) The book begins with William Goldman (the character) dumping his tormented childhood backstory and emotional connection to The Princess Bride directly upon your doorstep; after he’s reminded of the book's existence on the day of his son’s birthday, and then later discovers the original text is nothing like the cool adventure romp he knew as a kid. That story doesn’t exist. It was fabricated. The official book translation is actually an over-bloated total bore.

(Who) Goldman explains that he will serve as your editor and guide to ‘the good parts version’ of The Princess Bride — a book his immigrant father once read to him when he was utterly delirious for weeks, hospitalized and bedridden with a sour case of pneumonia. The original Princess Bride is said to be written by S. Morgenstern, an avid political satirist from the fictional country of Florin, the historical setting of The Princess Bride, which doubles as a birthplace for Morgenstern, and incidentally, Goldman's immigrant father. He has the Florinese accent, and a connection to the story as a piece of his own personal history. Goldman insists that the best possible version of the book was the version his dad once read to him, and to make sure his kid gets the same experience, the BEST experience, he’s going to essentially edit the whole monster of a book into a proper shape. Alone. With his own two hands.

In total we have about three-to-four narrators; Current Goldman, Kid Goldman, (Arguably) Goldman’s Father, and S. Morgenstein — who’s just Goldman again under a Florinese pseudonym.

(How) The Princess Bride is written in black and red text for ease of readability. Red is reserved for Goldman’s annotations and footnotes; he tries to introduce chapters and then give context to most of the cuts he makes to the book wherever he can, but since these can be very lengthy and merciless edits (think 20+ pages trashed at a time) he uses most of the space for the purpose of ranting or explaining himself. Sometimes he will gossip about S. Morgenstein’s life and critique his narrative choices, sometimes he will vent about his coworkers and his own life, sometimes he will tell you he has written an unofficial missing reunion scene and sequel for The Princess Bride, and is trying to convince the publishing house to let him print it, and would really, really like if you phoned or mailed the company, if you’d like to be in on that sweet fucking deal. (And these outside documents could be actually mailed to you at the time, though currently the only way to access them is through preserved online copies.)

This results in a book that is constantly taking itself apart on its own terms, and that is really funny to read. The humor aspect is played up to its fullest; sometimes S. Morgenstein tells jokes, sometimes the joke is Goldman dogging on Morgenstein (and thus himself), and sometimes, the meta-humor reaches around to being about you being slightly stupefied by Goldman’s reckless self-obsessed oversharing completely taking over someone else’s story - which he had ALREADY been recklessly fucking around with to fulfill a childhood delirium.

The book is a tongue-in-cheek dissection of fairytale romances, chivalric heroes, medieval fantasy tropes, why people read stories, why people *need* stories, disappointment, dissatisfaction, and The General Feeling Of ‘Catharsis’ that can only be found by choosing to look at things a certain way even when Shit Fucking Sucks. And also taking matters into your own hands, when you can. And also, it’s a little bit wholeheartedly in love with the genuine fondness shared between its main characters? (and I don’t mean just Buttercup and Westley, Inigo and Fezzik’s friendship plays a big part)

I think you must already know where I’m going with this, but let’s bring it back to how Princess Bride shows up in Homestuck, aka: okay how the hell does any of this connect with anything?

1- The Princess Bride Movie is in line with Jake’s outlook and approach to storytelling,

And:

2- The Princess Bride Book is in line with Dirk’s outlook and approach to storytelling.

While:

3- Both of them can be associated with the respective narrator roles in each version of the story (The earnest romantic guidance of the movie’s narrating grandfather, the book’s self-obsessed Goldman & history-bloated satirist Morgenstein), and not only that; They are both close to the story’s own protagonists (Dirk as Westley, Jake as Buttercup) and the supporting duo (Inigo and Fezzik’s long time friendship definitely tips towards the softly bromoromantic)

And I believe it’s worth exploring just how we get those Princess Bride lines and fight choreography added into Homestuck in the first place:

Brain Ghost Dirk is misquoting Movie Inigo’s lines (“You killed my father” becomes “You kissed my boyfriend”) to announce his intention of protecting Jake, directly placing himself as a mix of Inigo/Westley in this situation- both these characters embody a take on the chivalric sword-swinging hero motivated by love, which is something Dirk really wants to be, but while Inigo’s core is platonic, Westley only does everything he does in the story because he loves Buttercup, and has done so since they were kids.

But then there’s that extra layer; Brain Ghost Dirk is Dirk’s splinter, yeah, but he’s also Jake’s creation, and as demonstrated by how the rest of this scene unfolds; his physical existence is wholly dependent on how desperately Jake needs him. 

There’s the whole double reacharound of creator-creation, protector-protected, how one depends on the other to keep upright, a theme that is prevalent in The Princess Bride. (Not to speak of the work’s love for satire, especially satire mixed with romance. It’s perfectly in the spirit of the thing.)

For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the story, and a refresher for those who may have forgotten, here's a brief breakdown of the character links and summary;

The Princess Bride is a medieval-fantasy tale that tells the story of Buttercup, a simple-minded farm girl who just wants to fuck around and have a silly little life, but keeps being interrupted by the text & the characters in it ceaselessly preaching about her nebulous “potential”, and how she could be one of the Most Prettiest Beautifulest Women Ever if she just Tried, despite her disinterest. (that’s our Jake)

She’s also got some really fucked up recurring night terrors to do with her arranged marriage and childbirth and her perceived “inherent inability to love” because we already knew she was a jake but I guess it had to be made real obvious. (link from my screencap thread from when I was reading it in april)

Anyway, keeping on: Westley (Dirk) is a boy who works at her parent’s farm and fulfils her every wish because he’s deeply in love with her, but she never notices; until the day a countess makes eyes at Westley, Buttercup gets jealous, and then she finally gets it. Buttercup confesses, and is seemingly rejected by Westley’s total inability to respond. (Common theme with Dirks) She’s bummed out for a bit about this, but then the next day Westley announces that he does love her, he just has to go away to America for a while and work real hard so they can actually be together. He knows he can do this, because he’s trained for this moment; day in and day out he honed his craft in his hovel. He barely even fucking sleeps.

He can speak this part for himself tbh:

Westley departs. Buttercup decides that while she waits for him, she’ll finally learn to take care of herself, maybe even realize that whole ‘potential’ business. Her efforts are laudable, but they aren’t enough. Then one day, Buttercup is told that Westley’s ship was ambushed by the Dread Pirate Roberts; they would never even see his body.

Ironically, Westley’s death and the grief Buttercup suffers from it are the last straw that unlocks her ‘true potential’.

MEANWHILE, the king of Florin is dying, and Prince Humperdinck (Jane) needs to marry to be crowned king. He doesn’t really want to get married, but the law is the law and the new king needs to have a way to make a son and keep the lineage going. Since he’s only interested in the position, but he’d rather have some clout as well, Humperdinck comes up with a plan; he will marry the most beautiful woman alive, kill her, and then pin the blame of this “mysterious attack” in a neighboring kingdom, giving him an excuse to launch a war and conquer a place he wanted to own anyway. Buttercup is also not jazzed about his proposal, but she’s coerced into accepting or dying.

Once everything is settled, three years have passed in preparation to the wedding. Humperdinck hires a band of mercenaries to kidnap Buttercup and leave her body by the neighboring kingdom of Guilder. Those are Vizzini, Fezzik and Inigo. For our point-of-comparison purposes, I’ll only dwell on Inigo: he’s a Spanish swordsman rumored to be the Best Swordsman Alive, on a bloody revenge quest to find the six-fingered-man who killed his father, and slay him in turn. He’s so good, they might even call him the wizard of sword fighting. He also has a bit of a liquor problem. Can’t touch the stuff. (It’s interesting to note that while BGD associates himself with Inigo, and much of the character’s single-drive towards strict training and revenge for a father that was killed in combat is undoubtedly dirkesque, he also has some Roxy features. This is puzzling at first. And THEN you remember that Roxy is the one who ends up killing HIC with Dirk’s unbreakable katana in [S]: Collide as a symbolic revenge for them both, and the mixed nature of his character in specific makes a lot more sense.)

But not all hope is lost. Unbeknownst to Buttercup, Westley was merely taken as the pirate’s apprentice. He’s heard of her upcoming marriage - and now her sudden kidnapping, and the rest of the story revolves around him trying to save her from her captors, dispelling the mix-up about his identity along the way. He’s kinda upset about the whole marriage thing and intends to be very bitchy about it though. (Dirks will do that.)

This is just the movie intro, or the first couple chapters of the book, so if you’re interested in reading it now to see for yourself -- you absolutely should! Some of the jokes have admittedly Aged (this is a book from 1973 after all) but I find they’re mostly clustered at the beginning/modern segments, and in the long run it’s very much worth it to stick with the story. When it's all said and done you can read it as a seamless dirkjake au.