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the joker isn’t harley quinn’s love interest he’s her origin story

A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

Originally posted by smooshywrites

@ajohnster 

yaaaas!

I WANT TO KNOW THE STORY BEHIND THIS. I HONESTLY THOUGHT THEY WERE LOVERS.

Okay, okay, so short version:

Joker seduced Harley while he was in Arkham and she was his psychologist. He did so by manipulating sessions to make him seem pitiable.

Harley broke Joker out. Joker was originally going to kill her then, but fans had latched onto Harley Quinn’s new look and she was a fan favorite (mind you as I recall, she was originally introduced in BTAS, and then transferred to the comics later). So she ended up surviving his first murder attempt.

He decided that although annoying she could still be useful (since she’s actually brilliant, and at this point somewhat codependent). This leads to a string of horrific abuses and murder attempts. Including (in the TV show alone) throwing her through a window that is at *least* three stories up, choking her, beating her with a hammer, threatening her with one of his gag guns (which, depending on the gun, may or may not kill her in various ways), and attempting to get hyenas to eat her.

In the comics, it includes starving her, chaining her to a wall in a sewer on top of corpses of “failed Harleys,” poisoning her, leaving her in burning buildings, pushing her into the line of police fire, gaslighting her basically every time he fails to kill her, and the list goes on. When she becomes pregnant with her and Joker’s kid, she leaves for nine months, to her sister’s place, and gives birth there. She doesn’t tell Joker about the kid (and goes out of her way to prevent Joker from finding out). She tells Canary that it’s because Mr. J would be too busy for a kid, but if you pay attention to Harley’s behavior throughout the comic, the clear subtext is “My kid would end up dead or worse if Joker knew about her.”

Additionally, post break up, she notes he was abusive, says it wasn’t love, it was manipulation, and frequently describes it as the worst part of her life.

I’m no expert but I remember one more thing… she said he never noticed she was gone for those 9 months.

THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THIS UP.

Continuation of this post. Today I will analize Thor’s speech in the well known elevetor scene and will try to explain why I am not so positive about it.

“Loki, I thought the world of you” - as a start it’s okay. The only case when I think a compliment can go wrong is when a person you speak to have reasons to suspect you in flattery. Otherwise it’s not a bad thing but it doesn’t really change much in a positive way neither. Just a nice thing. But I can count it as a good start in comparison of what goes next.

“I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever” - this is slightly worse. You might think this is also a nice compliment and it’s pleasing to hear, but because of wording not exactly. It sounds more like a complaint and a person you are talking to is supposed to feel quilty for not  meeting your expectation and making you sad. That’s just pushes the person away because no one likes to feel quilty for not pleasing you as much as you would like them to. This line could be fixed if it was said somehow like “I am gratefull for the time we spent together in the past.” The same meaning but without forced guilt on the person. But again, it’s not so bad.

“But at the end of the day you are you and I am me” - good, aknowledging that they are separate humane beings with different perspective, different experiences and world view. In this line I see Thor who I love.

“I don’t know, may be there is still good in you” - and right now there is this line that just ruins everything. Just by this line alone you can say that 1) Thor doesn’t really  aknowledged their differences, he sees things only in his own perspective; 2) He tries to force his perspective on Loki which is nonono, it pushes away so bad; 3) He thinks of himself as the one to judge others, in this case basically sees himself above Loki. There could be no equality in relationship when one thinks of himself as a superior one and there could be no proper dialoge between them. He puts Loki in place when he can either confront Thor furhter or really put himself below him (What was the reason he run mad in the first movie. Because he was putting himself below for too long time. He craved equality like any human being) if he wants to continue relationship. There is also third option: break off completaly. Until the person who thinks himself as a superior one will change his mind. If he won’t be able to, there will be no relationship. And I believe that is what Loki was trying to achieve (uncoushiosly probably) all this time, refusing “go home”. There is no home for him if in this home he is below others, if he is valued less than others. Thor’s only job was to just aknowledge him and his feelings and perspective on things as no less important than his own. But he fails to do so completely. (Yes, I do all these conclusions just from one line, because it’s so bad)

“But let’s be honest, our past diverged a long time ago” - now he breaks up with Loki. As a said before, there is only two options for Loki after these words left: really break up with Thor or continue this relationship but with one condition: Thor is a superior one. Loki’s point of view matter only if Thor thinks it does. Otherwise it’s invalid. 

In this scene Thor reveals himself as a persone who thinks of himself as the right one, considers his world view as the only valid one and the one others need to share (and wouldn’t hesitate to force it on them) or otherwise they’re “bad ones”, and struggles to put himself in shoes of another person. Where is all the development he went through in the first movie? Ugh.

You see, you can influence others in a positive way not by telling them what to do with their lifes (if you think you know better, then no, you don’t), not by cheap manipulation technic like reverse psychology (which can be effective in a shortrun and not with a smart liar and player Loki is supposed to be; also it has negative consequences which kinda outweigh all possible positive ones), but by genuenily caring and respecting their needs, beliefs, world view. The things real heroes supposed to do, you know. That is why they are so powerful (see Thor’s speech in the first movie or my previous post). This is why I love Thor in Thor 1 so much. He was a hero then.

But further in the movie it becomes even worse than this. Loki really does try to break up with Thor by “betraying” him. This was his last attempt to establish himself as an equal one to Thor, refusing to cooperate on his terms. Then Thor uses torture that can be interpreted as a punishment (because there was no need for it really if Thor just wanted to stop him) for such rebellion. What Loki does next? He comes back to Thor creating a positive reinforcement to this kind of violence, making it clear that Thor is allowed to punish him if he thinks Loki deserves it. Loki doesn’t mind, he will come back anyway.

Honestly, this could be fixed pretty easy if Thor simply sincerely apologised before Loki for that torture and Loki would come back only after that. But we never saw him apologising for that. And now things are as they are.

Great analysis. The “maybe there’s still some good in you” is the worst line of dialogue in this movie. Right on top of “I’m me and you’re you” it really comes off as Thor being the Good Guy TM. Everyone opposing him should fall into the “might be good but most probably rotten” cathegory - with the “might be good” bit being too insignificant to actually treasure and explore.

I know people with personalities like Thor, unfortunately. Thors speech captures a really bad toxic relationship, with Thor convinced HE never did anything wrong and Loki must change himself completely or resign himself to being a bad guy in Thors eyes - and this is said after Loki in Dark World having almost sacrificed himself for Jane and did sacrifice himself for Thor ( - with only the promise of being returned to an eternity in the dungeons as reward, I would also lay still and pretend to quickly be dead of my very serious stab wound)… if I were Loki I would run to the other end of the Universe and never look back … I kinda lost all appreciation of MCU canon Thor, and the feeling even rubbed off on my appreciation of Chris Hemsworth too … and the “Get help” scene which follows the elevator scene - though initially funny to most audiences, had Thor repeatedly expressing his enjoyment at something that Loki repeatedly said he found humiliating. I cant help feeling Loki had more than enough justification in turning into a snake and stabbing Thor as a kid. I saw someone discussing how Loki is mjolnir (throw, always comes back)… well, mjolinir is dust in the hands of the Goddes of Death in this movie and Thor shows he doesn’t need it … so if that’s actually a comparison, then the relationship should be over… either Loki is totally messed up and addicted to emotional abuse, and thats why he keeps seeking love and validation from Thor or its just bad writing (or bad improv, cos there were comments about not having a proper script for this movie). …. Also comparing with Steve and Bucky, Steve is “ I know him”, “I’m with you till the end of the line” … Thor, with 1000 years of the opportunity for knowing Loki, does not see him, let alone know him, and shows no interest in understanding him and would never risk everything for Loki, although Loki, the poor little shit, may still risk all, once again, for Thor…

@imnotakangaroo-imabunny 

Just an excellent, excellent addition, thank you very very much.

“Thor repeatedly expressing his enjoyment at something that Loki repeatedly said he found humiliating.” 

Yesyes yes. Triggered me as well.

“I saw someone discussing how Loki is mjolnir”

Ugghhh. I could go on and on about how wrong it is but I got too triggered when I just think about it so better not.

And who is more right and more wrong in Thor-Loki relationship and how Loki already redeemed himself could be discussed for a long time, so I didn’t even start this and I am glad that you are talking about it instead of me. 

Basically the point of mine post was that after such speech the only acceptable reaction would be “run to the other end of the Universe and never look back”, as you said. Even if you are the worst person on Earth. You can become better, but only away from someone who puts themself above you. Being in such relationship will only make you more miserable.

“Loki is totally messed up and addicted to emotional abuse, and thats why he keeps seeking love and validation from Thor “ 

That what he is if you want to stay psychologically true, sadly. But I think according to Taika Waititi everything is just fine. Probably Loki deserves it lol.

its just bad writing (or bad improv, cos there were comments about not having a proper script for this movie)

Also totally true.

Also good comparison with  Steve and Bucky, I never was their fan (which has nothing to do with their personalities, only with my taste), but now I feel that I start to like them more;;; 

I hope potrayal of Thor in IW will be better than one in Ragnarok, then I will consider Taika Waititi’s Thor as an OOC and everything will be better;;

@kaori04 @shine-of-asgard @imnotakangaroo-imabunny @mastreworld

I have found my people!

Finally someone else who also thinks that the comparison of Loki and Mjolnir is horrible and depicts an abusive relationship where Thor throws Loki away but he keeps coming back to him for more abuse.

Just….NO.

That comparison is firstly a reach (I will not Taika the credit of even trying to be that deep anyway, with the way he has dealt with these issues in this movie). And it shows Thor in an even poorer light with respect to Loki.

Thor telling Loki that he believed there was still good in him… ugh. Yes, I was hoping there Thor would somewhere acknowledge his own mistakes along the way, and Odin’s, in how it contributed to Loki’s spiral into a psychotic break in Thor-1, but nope. Not a single word. 

Thor wanted Loki to come with him, but on his own terms, not Loki’s. You’re right, it put Loki in an inferior position, just as he had been at the beginning of Thor-1.

Worst, though, Thor tortured Loki and left him there, on Sakaar, in a totally vulnerable state. Loki was in pain and was unable to reach the device to turn it off. And Thor didn’t know about the possibility of Korg coming in to help Loki. So, Thor essentially left Loki to die on Sakaar. I’m surprised that people often miss this, but this whole scene really makes Thor look bad as a character.

And yet, what does Loki do? He could have escaped with the other Sakaarans and had an easy time. But no, he came straight to Asgard to rescue everyone and save Thor. Loki convinced a group of rag-tag fighters to fight for Asgard. A saviour indeed.

Ragnarok is a mess of a movie in hindsight. Now that the jokes are old, we can see how this movie lacked depth and character, which the previous ones had pulled off in a better manner.

There was so much they could’ve done with Thor’s character, but didn’t. They downplayed and even used Loki’s character and his painful past to make cheap jokes. The more I see this movie, the more I dislike it.

Hiiii…

I’ve read a commentary where it was said that the first Ragnarok scene the actor discussed with the producer was the “savior” scene and how it was described to be this lol-worthy moment of Loki being a little attention seeking opportunistic shit. Like, all the characterization of Loki in the movie would lead up to this scene, but not in a satisfactory redemption-y way but in the full tilt diva way. The more I think about it, the more it rubs me wrong.

And the ending, with Loki standing at Thor’s side at the coronation… I don’t even want to start. People wax poetical about how great it is, cause he’s come full circle. Like, what???? “I’ve never wanted a throne, I only wanted to be your equal”. He spent 4 movies trying to avoid being his brother’s shadow, and then just ends up in the same position - having not had any acknowledgement of his main issue and Thor’s part in sidelining him for an eternity. HOW THE FUCK IS LOKI THOR’S EQUAL IN THIS SITUATION?

Hi…would you all mind giving my blog a gander? I’ve been fighting this battle for Loki since film one and it would be great to have some support and acknowledgment. I know I’ve spoken to at least @latent-thoughts and @mastreworld before.

Yes yes all of this. I think I know why so many people can’t see how cruel some of Thor’s actions are. The probelm is that the movie can’t acknowledge when a “hero” has done something wrong, or plays it as a joke. I believe a blog has already pointed out that Valkyrie is never called out on essentially kidnapping innocent people and selling them into slavery, where they’re forced to fight for their lives, when Val used to be a protector of innocent lives, or that Bruce in his Hulk form kills most of those slaves in combat. (#icyxmischief, was that you?) And a lot of people keep asking why I try to defend a villain, when they can’t see what their hero might has done wrong. When Loki does something evil, the writers make sure you interpret it as such. But with Thor? No. Just switch the characters at certain points in the movie, and you’ll see what I mean. For example, just imagine If Thanos were the one pressing the button with a wide smile that would activade the tortur device on his Loki’s back. Thanos is enjoying seeing his former partner fall to the ground, his veins slowly turn purply. He’s fully aware of the fact that his slave is part frost giant, and that the heat must hurt him more than it would any asgardian. He’s standing directly above him and looking him in the eyes, still not doing something, anything, to make the pain end. After Thanos talks further down to Loki, he leaves. Loki still lays on the ground, writhing in pain. He has no other option than waiting, the super heated veins leaving him vulnerable to whoever finds him first. Thanos walked of with no feelings of remorse or guilt. He thinks that his actions are completly justified for what Loki just tried to do. How could he be ever wrong?

I can tell you, if this would be the case, there would be a different typ of music, a different lighting, and over all, a different feeling to it. Why is it, that I just could switch the names “Thanos” and “Thor”, and the scene would still be realistic? I mean, you know you fucked up when you can just have the villain do a thing that the hero did, and it would not be considered OC. I’m not saying that Thor is a bad guy, he just did a bad thing, but people won’t acknowledge it because the movie played it as a cheap joke. Right, we were meant to laugh at this, because nothing is more hillarious than seeing a character you’ve grown to love suffering. This scene just made me dislike Thor. It’s Loki who comes back to Thor, but it should be the other way around. Inflicting pain on a family member isn’t going to make them like you more, it’s no way of solving complex emotional issues. But Taika didn’t care about that, he wanted a cool superhero who wouldn’t be standing in the shadows of the villain. I think he saw that the fandom liked Loki a lot better than Thor, and he wanted to change that. And in a glorious attempt at doing so, he made both characters less…good. Thor because now he just seems callous and mean (He takes pleasure in seeing his brother in pain. I just… How does that add up with what he was doing in Thor 1 and Thor 2?) And Loki, because the MCU depowering him wasn’t enough, now he gets physically hurt with inanimate objects or thrown through portals for comic relive. I mean, come on. Loki isn’t weak or bad when it comes to magic. He can turn into animals, teleport, make things levitate and probably knows the most complicated spells. How could he lose against Strange? He should be no match for Loki. The God of mischief has far more knowledge and experience than he has. It’s so that Thor looks better next to him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for this post! I agree with it all. I think the Loki-to-mjolnir comparison is awful. That scene in the elevator let me down in so many ways. I just wanted them to have a moment of real, coherent openness of the heart as brothers, for Thor to really see and give Loki some acknowledgement at least of the pain he has been enduring for so long, but it didn’t happen. Instead, it was….Thor threw Loki a bone and he had to take it because he realized that’s all he’s going to get. Thor put the obedience disc on Loki and tortured him into being good. It wasn’t reverse psychology as much as it was Thor bullying and torturing Loki. 

When Thor says to Loki that life is about moving on, growth and change, but you seem to want to stay the same…how does he know? We all don’t move on, grow and change at the same rate! It depends on what you have to move on from. And in the end it just had the feeling of putting Loki “back in his place”, quiet, resigned, obedient, and beneath Thor once again.

@lokiloveforever I am glad so many people see this scene for what it is and not for what it was framed.

“I think the Loki-to-mjolnir comparison is awful.”  

I believe those who like this comparison do view Loki as a part of Thor. And probably they are the ones who say that Loki doesn’t need a solo movie because he is nothing without Thor. Guys, that’s Thor who is boring without Loki, not the other way.

“When Thor says to Loki that life is about moving on, growth and change, but you seem to want to stay the same…how does he know?”

He doesn’t know, but he thinks he knows. And that’s like the most certain sign of deep deep ignorance, when you claim to know what other person is going through and what he needs. Even a therapist this person might tell everything about themselves won’t claim that, only try to help them to get to know themselves better, as far as I know.

What is more interesting is that Loki WAS moving forward up to this movie. You can judge his methods, sure, they are not very good, he is not a saint, but he was facing the conflict and not running away, not hiding. Thor got to respect him and got to value Loki’s point of view because Loki started to value it themselves. And Ragnarok just ruined it.

Thank you @kaori04  @fairlightswiftly  @lasimo74allmyworld  and everybody! I have been waiting for this post too. Ragnarok had me so upset, this movie to me was so pitiful. I didn’t come away from seeing it with a feeling of brotherly love and reconciliation that so many people say they felt. In the elevator scene, Thor knows, he knows that Loki needs to hear something from him, but it’s like he just he just teases him, just throws him a little bone. And then Loki is right back where he started in The first Thor. This movie felt like a big “SCREW YOU” to Loki and us.

I might’ve made the mjölnier/Loki comparison (can’t remember), but if I did it was not to claim that Loki ought to be like mjölnir, as a tool for Thor’s exclusive use, or a handy-in-a-pinch tool that belongs at Thor’s side and nowhere else, but that Thor regards Loki as he did mjölnir - up to a point - because he could could throw Loki away with the assumption of the supreme arrogant that he would always find it at his side again. A tool that he could use without consideration or even understanding that the tool is a separate entity with its own thoughts and desires.

I say ‘up to a point’ because it’s obvious that Thor valued his hammer more than he ever did his brother.

@small-potato-of-defiance I like the way you put this comparison, because it shows only Thor’s problematic perspective on their relationship, and not like it’s ought to be for both of them. 

Reblogging for the many excellent comments that came after I last saw this post.

Bless this post… I feel like I’ve finally found my community… I don’t blame Thor though; I completely blame all these on bad writing, and bad writing it was in Loki’s case, too. I’m referring only to MCU Loki, by the way.

I’ve seen people say that Ragnarok was Loki’s redemption arc, that they were glad he was funnier and happier. I’ve seen memes made from the funny scenes of Loki in the film. I’ve seen how people have praised his character development, citing how he has gone from loathing his Jotunheim heritage in the first film to accepting it and even willingly revealing it to his people through stage plays in this one (oh look how far he’s come!) . Fine, I love redemption arcs and I was OK with the general direction that Loki was going, I loved the “I’m here” scene, but I’m not at all okay with how he arrived there. Just, look at the details.

I admit that I laughed at the “oh shit” scene, the “I have to get off this planet” scene and several others when I first watched the film. I thought Loki was really funny and I loved him. But then I went back home to watch Thor and Thor: The Dark World again, and I found so many things wrong with Loki in Thor: Ragnarok. Core aspects of his character—the elegance, pride, poise and mannerisms inherent in him that at the same time came from his upbringing as a royal prince of Asgard —were lost. I’m not talking about superficially.

Anyway, it becomes apparent when comparisons are made between how he has reacted in situations of similar nature in the different films.

“If it’s all the same to you, I’ll have that drink now.” –This was Loki in the first Avengers movie, after getting smashed by the Hulk and paralyzed by shock, defeated and faced with the whole of the Avengers team.

“If I am for the axe, then for mercy’s sake, just swing it.”—This was Loki in Thor: The Dark World, when Odin was condemning him for his crimes.

“Hmm. When do we start?”—This was Loki in the dungeons when Thor had come to ask for his help, in response to Thor’s “You betray me, and I will kill you.”

“See you in hell, monster.”—This was Loki when he was stabbed by the dark elf in Thor: The Dark World.

These were Loki, who didn’t cower or show any weakness in any confrontation, who was suave and sassy even in the face of defeat, punishment, threats or death. I personally find that incredibly charming. Then this was Loki in Thor: Ragnarok:

“Oh shit,” –This was Loki as Odin, when he saw Thor return to Asgard. Not to be a killjoy, but I question why such a crude lowly Midgardian expression would be in Loki’s vocabulary.

“I have to get off this planet,” –This was Loki who got up immediately and tried to bolt upon seeing the Hulk.  

Previously, even when he was surrendering to the Avengers he had been a smart mouth about it. Even when he was captured and chained up there had been a defiant look in his eyes. Even when he was being yelled at by Odin he had stared straight at him and didn’t back down, even daring Odin to sentence him to death. Even when his illusion had been seen through by Thor and he was appearing dishevelled and in a mess, he was sardonic in his words and attitude. The only time he was ever seen to be truly afraid was when he was being threatened by The Other and warned of Thanos’ wrath. He was sort of teary-eyed but he never broke composure even then. You’re telling me that this Loki would subconsciously let out an “oh shit” when he saw Thor, who he had always sought to be an equal of. That his first reaction was to frantically try to scoot off when he saw the Hulk from a glass window. That despite him claiming that satisfaction wasn’t in his nature, he decided to willingly submit to Thor in the end even though he never received the equality and respect that he had always wanted. Okay…

Another thing that didn’t sit well with me was that not only had the film severely downplay his powers, it had reduced his character into this mere “God of Mischief”. The keyword is ‘mere’. After the seemingly heart-to-heart talk with Thor in the elevator, he decided to betray Thor again. For what purpose? Reward money like he claimed? Or because he would “always be the God of Mischief” who seemed to “just want to stay the same”? Really? Since when has Loki betrayed Thor for the sake of it? Let’s count the number of ways he has “betrayed” Thor:

1) Ruined his coronation in the first Thor film by letting in the few Frost Giants into Asgard because he thought Thor wasn’t ready for the throne. 

2) Took over the throne, lied to Thor that Odin was dead and told him he couldn’t come back to Asgard, sent the Destroyer after him.

3) Wreaked havoc on Thor’s precious Earth in the first Avengers film.

4) Faked his own death (debatable whether it had been intentional), took over the throne, exiled Odin.

Did he do all that out of mischief? As I’ve mentioned in my earlier reblog, he had his reasons for doing what he did in every case. He was the villain but we could empathise with him and easily understand the motivations behind what he did, not like in this film where his actions were all attributed to mischief. Thor’s speech about him being an incorrigible God of Mischief was completely invalid and utter nonsense–they only tagged MCU Loki with the GoM label in this film. Loki was a complex, conflicted and interesting character, yet they had completely trivialized him and turned him into comic relief. Not only had the film failed to acknowledge or address any of Loki’s issues, it even turned them into jokes. Though to be fair, most of the film had been comedy :) 

The only moments I’ve seen glimpses of the old Loki in the film were when Odin called him his son, when he visited Thor in the prison and in the elevator scene with Thor. Surprised when Odin still called him his son, worried that Thor might really fight Hela who could possibly kill him, wounded by Thor’s indifference to him. Brief moments and subtle expressions that were again easily overshadowed by the comedy if one wasn’t paying attention. Those were the only times I saw him in the film–my proud, vulnerable prince who had a stubborn mouth but a sensitive, broken heart.

Honestly, take a good look at Loki in Thor: Ragnarok, without any fan bias… Which scene in particular has made you feel the kind of charm and charisma that he had in the previous movies? He was funny, but it’s in a different way from how he was in Dark World or Avengers. And of course he’s still handsome and lovable no matter what, but his character as a whole… I hate to say this, because I know many people consider it character development, but I’m calling retcon and OOC… 

I keep reblogging this because there is just one good comment after another.

Thank you @yume-no-fantasy - your comment made me want to respond again! I agree with everything you said. They took something away from Loki in Ragnarok and they need to give it back! One of the moments where I felt like the real Loki came out was when Bruce was asking him “where are you at these days” and Loki looked him dead in the eye and said “it varies from moment to moment” - I felt like that was Loki. And I’ve seen the comments about how much happier he is and how far he’s come and how everything’s ok now and how he’s “fixed” now, and I just can’t and don’t see it!!

I just cannot believe the Loki of Thor, Avengers, and Dark World would be okay with some overly melodramatic play about himself! Now I thought they were just going to pretend the other movies didn’t exist, but to go out of their way to mock and make fun of them?? What if somebody came along and made a movie where Steve Rogers was watching a melodramatic play about the events of Captain America, and it was all a comedy? Or Tony Stark watching a funny play about his parents being murdered? Would people be having a fit? Or is this okay because this is Loki we’re talking about here?

Okay, I know that the movie is called Thor and it’s essentially about him, but hands up, how many people go see the movies for Loki? How many like Loki more than Thor? How many people see the movies because it’s the only chance to see Loki? It’s like they didn’t consider Loki or his fans, or more like they we’re trying to spread the notion that “hey, this is Loki, the “little shit”, just a thorn in Thor’s side, he shouldn’t be anybody’s favorite character!”

Yes, I want him to have a redemption arc, but I wanted it to be done with more care, and heart, and seriousness and respect that he deserves. I needed something from this movie and it DID NOT GIVE IT. And there might not be another chance!

Now I wanna know where you people up here were hidden during all this time!!!

I’m going to add my two cents, since you have all been so caring and thoughtful about this film, I will try as well, but certainly from a very different perspective.  I don’t mean to offend anyone, and if I do I apologize in advance, but I’m going to look at this film from an outside point of view, not characterwise.

I put the blame for Thor Ragnarok totally on two people, Kevin Feige & Taika Waititi.  I don’t care for the film, while I still adore Loki.  Tom is such an incredible actor, he’s a joy to watch, even in this mess.  I’ve seen it three times since it came out on digital download, and I’m still waiting for a laugh.  It’s an insulting film, no matter how good Tom is.

Kevin Feige runs a big company and wants to be profitable.  Yes, he’s makibg superhero movies, but he still wants to make money.  Taika Waititi is a smart-ass director whose pal got him a job, it’s cushy.  He’s made a nice comfy spot for himself, he’s working in his backyard.  What’s not to like.  

The problem (as it were) started with Kenneth Branaugh.  He hired a man who not only can act, but loves character archeology.  He hired Tom who can act circles around you if your not Anthony Hopkins or someone of that caliber.  So Kevin has a serious problem, he’s got this amazing actor who has finely crafted a “bad guy” who is far more interesting than most all the good guys.  Kevin’s problem?  MCU is about superheroes, good guys.  So he uses Tom where he can, and ignores him the rest of the time.  Thor suffers because Thor is less interesting than Loki! (And though I think it, I’m prejudiced, Tom’s a better actor than Chris.  Sorry Thor fans.  Chris has more muscle, if that helps.)

Then we have Taika who is directing his pal, Chris.  Has this great job in his backyard, can hire other pals (Rachel House), makes a cushy role for himself (rock man), wants more MCU work, seems to love Hollywood attention.  So what to do to make your pal, the actual star of the film, look better?  Make that other problem character (the one who keeps stealing the show), look as stupid as possible.  He speaks to well, make him go with, “Oh, shit.”  He moves well, throw him on his back & electrocute him.  Do what it takes so people say, “ Wow!  I really noticed Hemsworth in this one.  Where was he before? ”

Well that’s the real question isn’t it??  Thor isnt nicer in this film.  He hadn’t become the ruler of Asgardian dreams.  He’s actually quite mean spirited, but boy does he stand out, at everyone’s expense (except for Jeff Goldblum, who’s making his own movie.)

So  I miss the “real” Loki, maybe they should have tried to get Branaugh to direct again?  But then Kevin wouldn’t be rolling in the dough, and Taika wouldn’t be the talk of the town.  I miss the good, old days! 😭. You can now return to your regularly scheduled lives.

@nooo-body I tend to agree with you, that’s a great addition.

Though I don’t blame TW for being excited about his HW job or for bringing his pals on set or for placing himself in the movie. That’s understandable. I only wish he had more respect for previous movies and already established characters and therefore for his audience that was invested in story.

And man, do I wish all the Thor movies were directed by Branagh? Yes I do.

Every time I see this post, there is a perfect addition to it. I feel like everyone here have said all my thoughts. Thank you all.

@nooo-body @kaori04 @lucianalight @yume-no-fantasy @shine-of-asgard @small-potato-of-defiance @mastreworld @samanthastar47 @latent-thoughts and everybody who added on to this post, thank you so much! I don’t know about you, but this post has made me feel better. @nooo-body I absolutely agree with everything you said. And yes, I wish Kenneth Branagh could direct them all too! We, as Loki fans, needed something from Ragnarok, and we didn’t get it. We needed Loki’s character to be held in the same regard as the other movies did, respect and not ridicule, and it didn’t happen. I’m not holding out much hope that Infinity War will fix any of that, but I am hoping. 

This is the best discussion I’ve seen in a long time. It’s great to see that I’m not alone in these thoughts (though I wish I could express them as well as others have on here). It’s so frustrating to see the third movie in the trilogy so totally disrespect the story and the characters, treating their developments like they don’t matter.

And not only Loki; Thor’s arc of learning humility and caring for others took a complete U-turn and he’s back to being an insensitive, manipulative brute. Loki is back in his shadow, the very role he wanted to escape. All their growth for nothing.

I agree with you completely @mastreworld

with Grandcatmaster 🐾

loki got a sugar daddy in ragnarok & im so proud of him

can you believe how gay the grandmaster is and how loki was totally his main bitch, and that’s why loki knew the key to the grandmaster’s orgy ship and why he was the only other other person on the grandmaster’s couch watching the thor/hulk fight; you can’t tell me that loki wasn’t the grandmaster’s trophy twink

Unpopular Opinion: I don’t think Loki fucked the Grandmaster

Because Loki is too smart for that

Look, the Grandmaster is a man who loves games.  He spends his extremely long life putting together blood sport championships because he is a nut and an adrenaline junkie.  What is a more exhilarating game than seduction?  

So I think Loki knows that if he gave it all up to the Grandmaster right away, then the Grandmaster would just get bored of him.  After all, the fun is playing the game.  Once someone wins, its over.  

But if Loki played hard to get?  If he was little tease? Oh I totally could see him in the Grandmaster’s lap stroking the other man’s ego, making out, maybe some light fooling around.  But he knows better than to take this straight to pound town.  Instead he is going to play up being flustered and take the seat on that sofa and let the Grandmaster think he’s slowly seducing him.  

He could drag this out for quite a while, living it up in the lap of luxury with new clothes and fabulous parties while he plots his next move in this beautiful trash planet chaos.  

At least until his brother shows up ;-)

Theory about Loki

So Loki is said to be a good tactician and he’s known for grand and convoluted schemes, though his execution of them sometimes isn’t the best. Sometimes. That said, this little theory has been rattling around in my brain for a while and I wanted to get it out of my system….. 

Dive in with me as I try to connect some dots! 

Thor 1: After Loki fell from the bifrost he eventually comes into contact with Thanos and the Black Order. He gained some ancient knowledge in that time and had it rough with Thanos. It’S easy to imagine Loki would do whatever it takes to survive, even if that means gaining the Mad Titan’s trust and offering to bring Thanos the tesseract. Thanos trusts Loki with an army and the scepter containing the mind stone and trusted him well enough to make good on his promises. ( Thanos also trusted Ronan too and we saw how that went. Dude is big and scary but a super bad judge of character. ) 

The Avengers: Two years or so pass and Loki arrives on earth by means of the tesseract and promptly threatens them with war. The Avengers assemble and then Loki loses. Now the big question. Did Loki lose on purpose? Here’s why I think he might have. If he won, Thanos would want to collect. Loki doesn’t like Thanos and he probably doesn’t want Thanos to have the infinity stones. By losing he has a good excuse to get away from Thanos and get a one way ticket back to Asgard, the one place he really truly does want to rule. In short, what if Loki’s plan to rule Earth was just a ruse and provided him an easy out from a bad situation. He just had to put up a convincing fight to make it look good.

Thor 2:  Loki fakes his death and assumes the role of Odin. Now he has a crevice he can hide in. Now he has every opportunity to turn over the reality stone and the tesseract to Thanos and he does neither of these things.

 Thor Ragnarok: Loki has cut Asgard off from the rest of the realms and he proceeds to rule and live a very self indulgent life. Asgard prospers. Finally he can be himself. He’s won. The Avengers and Thor can take of the rest of the work. He’s done. He thinks he has everything under control now and Thanos is none the wiser. 

Later on Sakaar Loki is now somewhere he can conceivably continue to hide. This is great! Now if he could convince Thor to stay with him there then at least he wouldn’t be alone, but that’s not going to happen. Thor refuses. So, rather than break Thor out he keeps Thor there. When Thor breaks out on his own, Loki even goes as far as to try and turn Thor in just to keep him there, but Thor one ups Loki and tells him off. Now he’s faced with a decision he probably really doesn’t want to make. Continue on as he is and keep running, keep avoiding the larger issue ( Thanos ) and lose Thor who he still really cares about. Or, go back and help Thor, be more than what he is right now, show Thor he can still surprise him and aid his people. After Ragnarok we see Loki is returning to Earth with Thor. Maybe Loki thinks as long as he stands together with Thor things might turn out alright and Thor believes it will. Maybe it could work out. Maybe there is hope. But, they don’t make it to earth in time. Thanos is upon them. 

In short, what I’m saying is that Loki has done everything in his power to keep the infinity stones out of Thanos’s hands. Why would Loki care so much about the universe? Because as Starlord put it:

I like this theory. Honestly, anyone who thinks Loki would just give the Tesseract to Thanos willingly didn’t watch the same movies we did, he promised Thanos the Tesseract, he ruled Asgard for four years and in that time he knew the Tesseract was in the vault and never touched it and even sent the Aether away, he could’ve easily given both stones to Thanos to make up for failing him.

MRS HUDSON

reblog if you agree

Congratulations to Tom for his first Golden Globe nomination AND win!! 

It is what it is.

HE LITERALLY HAD AN "affair" WITH SHERLOCKS SISTER

circle of life

as a father, victor should introducing his son to the world.

he put john’s baby

in john’s chair

When cosplay gets it right