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Here There Be Fandoms

@sweetteaanddragons / sweetteaanddragons.tumblr.com

Member of the Church of Christ. Occasional quotes, funny stuff, and random fandoms, but mostly Silmarillion fic. Frequently AU, never slash or NSFW.
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(All art used with the express permission of the artist)

I'm going ahead and doing these every three days instead of every week because I'm still collecting artwork, and if we do one a week, we're gonna be here for twenty-thousand years.

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I have seen a lot of Batman fic where Jason (as Red Hood) and Tim (as a civilian) are both kidnapped by bad guys and the bad guys try to convince Red Hood to give up information by torturing Tim on the theory that Tim is a kid, Red Hood protects kids, maybe Red Hood will be convinced to do the thing. Usually a lot of the drama in these stories come from Tim being convinced that Jason isn't even going to care that he's being tortured, and Jason actually caring very much but still not able to give up the info for whatever reason. (He doesn't actually have the info, it will endanger a large number of civilians, etc.)

And don't get me wrong: I love these stories. I devour them like popcorn.

But.

But I do think it would be fun to see a role reversal where someone kidnaps Tim as Robin and Jason as a civilian because they want info from Robin, and they torture Jason to get the info on the theory that hey, Jason is a civilian and Robin protects civilians, and they know torturing Robin won't work, every two-bit villain has tried that before, but maybe if they're threatening an innocent civilian -

Jason is pretty much convinced that Tim is not going to care if he gets beaten up! That Tim is going to probably consider it justice if he gets beaten up! But he can't just say that because then these guys will just kill him, and he really doesn't want to die again, so he just has to hope that Tim wants to see him beaten up badly enough to keep his mouth shut.

Meanwhile, Tim is over here having far more complicated feelings than Jason suspects and also really desperately does not want Jason to die again, because he has been there, seen that, gotten that depressed Batman and Nightwing t-shirt, and just no.

If anyone knows of a story where this is a thing, I would love to see it.

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cuarthol

Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien Tolkien i'm begging of you please don't kill my man

His beauty is beyond compare His stature tall, and long his hair Like every other man you wrote has been I know the more you speak his praise The fewer his remaining days How easily you break my heart, Tolkien

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a-tehta

I think this song is made of lies Your fave's your fave because he dies Or 'cause his pain gets worse in every scene. If what it took to make us care Was fairness, wisdom and great hair We'd all be on here stanning Finarfin.

What slander found within these notes! I stan Finarfin, love him totes But in the text he largely stays unseen He lost his sons, his daughter banned He suffered plenty at Jirt's hand Death isn't the worst fate cast by Tolkien But Elrond and Finarfin show What we all here already know The chance of getting out alive is lean How many more were slain and lost Their tales compel, but there's a cost My love is true, it belongs to Tolkien Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien i'm begging of you please don't kill my man Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien, Tolkien An Andreth, Turin, Finrod, Beleg fan

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Thank you to @thescrapwitch for tagging me in a wip game! Have another snippet of the hopefully forthcoming "Raise Them Well (Or Out of Spite)" follow up. (My AU in which Feanaro and Nerdanel end up having to raise Nolofinwe.)

. . .

“We can change his mind,” Maitimo said. “One vase off the mezzanine next to your head, and there won’t be any question of leaving you alone.” 

The nursery - for lack of a better word, that was still what they called it - was quiet, but not too quiet. He could hear the soft sounds of Makaluare and Tyelkormo breathing as they slept.

The sound was further away than it had once been. Since the room had already needed renovations after Melkor knocked a wall out, hanno had ordered that wall repaired and a different one removed to expand the room and allow them all more space.

The little ones, of course, slept near the far wall, as far as possible from both door and window. Just in case.

Farther than it had once been, when Makaluare was still an infant who cried if he was set somewhere he could not see at least one family member. He had never tolerated the crib long; as soon as his parents vanished out the door, his breath would start to hitch until Maitimo rescued him from its bars and settled with him on his own bed, carefully cradling his brother to his chest.

Farther than it had once been. Still close enough to hear.

They might not be for long.

He did not, directly, respond to Maitimo’s offer to pretend to attempt to murder him. “Did you know he didn’t like her?” he asked, staring up at the ceiling.

It felt like such a small word for an emotion so strong that it would drive hanno to leave him.

Maitimo was silent a little too long. “I wondered,” he said at last. “From some of the things we heard.”

It had been we, Nolofinwe admitted to himself. He had heard the rumors too. He just hadn’t credited them.

They had been surprised hanno looked after him. That was why he had given them no credence. They had been surprised while Nolo had felt the blazing fire of his brother’s fea wrapped protectively around his; they had been surprised while it had been the most natural thing in the world.

And so he had thought the rumors as much nonsense as so many other things.

Yet they had been right. They had been right about that, so had they been right about -

“Don’t push anything off the mezzanine,” he said, turning in the bed to face the wall. “It’s probably best I stay.”

. . .

I'm never good at the tagging people part of this, so if you want to participate, consider yourself tagged!

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We laugh at Sauron for not realising a golden-haired Aman elf with the audacity to challenge a fallen Maia with song can only be Finrod at this point, and conclude that Finrod's spell must have worked in part -- but I've never heard anyone ask how on earth did he never come up with the idea that Celebrimbor might have given the three rings to his three remaining family members!

Who made the spell this time?

Theory One:

Celebrimbor made a big show out of sending three of his followers off in three different directions. They keep being spotted in weirder and farther away places. None of those places are where the rings actually are. Sauron is convinced they must have some kind of final destination in mind. (They do not. They are on the world's worst and most endless road trip.)

Theory Two: Celebrimbor made fake letters from Galadriel and Gil-Galad demanding to know what he'd done with the rings. He "hid" these strategically; Sauron is now convinced that the others must be as in the dark as he is. (If either of them ever find out, they're rather insulted; Galadriel because she could do blisteringly angry and intimidating demands much better than that, and Gil-Galad because there aren't any letters from Elrond appealing on Gil-Galad's behalf, implying that in this scenario, Celebrimbor thinks Elrond wouldn't side with his king.)

(Celebrimbor is actually just trying to keep Elrond out of this, thank you very much.)

Theory Three: Celebrimbor managed to convince Sauron that he was Feanorian enough to have only entrusted the rings to his uncle. Sauron demanded to know where Maglor had fled to, then. Celebrimbor very convincingly says he doesn't know. (Because he doesn't. He's actually very convinced Maglor is dead, or he wouldn't be throwing him under the bus like this.)

(Maglor is not dead, and he's wondering why his sense of doom is tingling.)

Theory Four: Sauron is kind of an idiot.

Potential follow ups to three:

  • One: Celebrimbor dies and discovers that Maglor is not, in fact, dead. He panics about what he's just sent after his uncle.
  • Two: Sauron manages to catch up to Maglor and kills him. Celebrimbor comes across his newly arrived uncle in the Halls and is very, very sorry about this. Maglor assures him there are worse things to die for.
  • Three: At some point agents of Sauron show up at Imladris and demand the elvish rings.
  • Elrond: Oh, no. He's figured out I have one.
  • Agents of Sauron: Tell Maglor he has until the end of the day to surrender them.
  • Elrond: . . . or not.
  • Even funnier if Elrond has not, in fact, found Maglor and convinced him to return to Imladris.
  • So now they have to convince the agents they don't have Maglor (truth) or any of the rings (lie).
  • Or, you know, just kill them and hope no more show up.
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We laugh at Sauron for not realising a golden-haired Aman elf with the audacity to challenge a fallen Maia with song can only be Finrod at this point, and conclude that Finrod's spell must have worked in part -- but I've never heard anyone ask how on earth did he never come up with the idea that Celebrimbor might have given the three rings to his three remaining family members!

Who made the spell this time?

Theory One:

Celebrimbor made a big show out of sending three of his followers off in three different directions. They keep being spotted in weirder and farther away places. None of those places are where the rings actually are. Sauron is convinced they must have some kind of final destination in mind. (They do not. They are on the world's worst and most endless road trip.)

Theory Two: Celebrimbor made fake letters from Galadriel and Gil-Galad demanding to know what he'd done with the rings. He "hid" these strategically; Sauron is now convinced that the others must be as in the dark as he is. (If either of them ever find out, they're rather insulted; Galadriel because she could do blisteringly angry and intimidating demands much better than that, and Gil-Galad because there aren't any letters from Elrond appealing on Gil-Galad's behalf, implying that in this scenario, Celebrimbor thinks Elrond wouldn't side with his king.)

(Celebrimbor is actually just trying to keep Elrond out of this, thank you very much.)

Theory Three: Celebrimbor managed to convince Sauron that he was Feanorian enough to have only entrusted the rings to his uncle. Sauron demanded to know where Maglor had fled to, then. Celebrimbor very convincingly says he doesn't know. (Because he doesn't. He's actually very convinced Maglor is dead, or he wouldn't be throwing him under the bus like this.)

(Maglor is not dead, and he's wondering why his sense of doom is tingling.)

Theory Four: Sauron is kind of an idiot.

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tolkienrsb

Sign-ups for the Tolkien Reverse Summer Bang 2024 are now open!

If you’re new here, TRSB  is a Tolkien-fandom-wide event celebrating the talent of our fanwork creators. Participating artists create a piece of art to be claimed by a signed up author. Authors will then write a 5k word fic based on the art they chose.

  • All sign-up forms are available here!
  • As well as signing up as an author and/or artist, you can sign up as a beta, cheerleader, pinch hitter, or treat maker.
  • Explanations of what all of these mean can be found in the relevant section of our FAQ.  Sign-ups for these roles will remain open for the duration of the event and will get you access to the gallery. However, you must be signed up as an author to claim.
  • Want to suggest a prompt to our artists? Our suggestions form will be open until May 14th.
  • Want to see what others have already suggested and get hyped with us? Check out our handy spreadsheet.
  • Questions? Visit our website, which has our FAQ and timeline all set out. 
  • Please be sure to familiarise yourself with the rules before signing up :) 

The event is open to all characters, genres and ratings, and all canons that fall under the Tolkien fandom umbrella. This includes movieverse (i.e. the LOTR and Hobbit trilogies), lesser known works by Tolkien (such as The Father Christmas Letters), and/or other works with a clear link to his life or creative output (for example, Tolkien's translations and academic texts, the 2019 Tolkien biopic, fan-made films like Born of Hope, and game canons such as The Lord of the Rings Online). Crossovers between two or more Tolkien canons are permitted.

We hope you're as excited as we are! We can't wait to see what you make.

-- The TRSB Mod Team

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Snippet from "Raise Them Well" Alt. PoV

Having trouble writing this one, so I hoped posting this would help inspire more.

Link to the original story here.

. . .

Tyelkormo was not much of one for drawing, but when he could be coaxed into artistic endeavors, he had a gift for capturing animals mid-motion. Anything stationary had a tendency to be rendered in a few careless strokes, too uninteresting to bother with details.

His latest efforts were stacked on hanno’s desk, intermingled with scraps of Makalaure’s latest songs. Nolofinwe had been straightening them compulsively for the last five minutes; it was easier than looking at Maitimo and seeing his own reflection in his brother-cousin’s eyes.

“Do you remember that picture of my mother I drew for Uncle Ingwion? I wanted to draw yours too, so I asked hanno for her hair color.”

He’d had rather confused ideas on how exactly motherhood worked at the time. It was only then that he’d fully comprehended that death was an aberration, not a prerequisite.

“I remember.” Maitimo’s voice was cautious from its place by the doorway he was still so carefully not-guarding.

They were not, technically, supposed to be in here alone. But no one would care too badly, and it was a day for doing not-quite things.

He would rather be in a courtyard, working through the patterns of his sword, but the halls were so crowded with people rushing, gossiping, preparing, and this had been the first room Maitimo could drag him to that they could trust to be empty of people who would wonder at the shaking of Nolofinwe’s hands.

“I remember Amil talked to us both after,” Maitimo added when Nolofinwe didn’t continue. “So we’d know what had really happened and wouldn’t have to hear it from rumors.”

There was an unspoken question in the way he said rumors: What have you heard? Is this what’s bothering you?

They had always heard rumors. That the old king had been cursed; that it was all Nolofinwe’s fault, all hanno’s fault, all the Valar’s fault, all - 

Always rumors.

“And then hanno came and got you for a lesson,” Nolofinwe said, “and she asked me if I had any questions.” He had not shared this part before. “I asked if it was true that not all of the dead could come back.”

They both knew the answer to that question, though Maitimo had not been there when Nolofinwe had first learned it, and Nolo had never spoken of it since.

“When she said it was, I said that I thought Atar should be the one to stay. That it seemed most fair.”

The word Atar felt awkward on his tongue. He pushed through it, forcing the syllables through; it didn’t matter if he could say it right, as long as he could say it with confidence; they both knew that lesson well enough. 

He would have to get used to the word. Best to practice now.

Especially when it would make it easier not to think of the rest of what he had confessed.

“It didn’t seem right for me to get my mother back, and hanno not to get his,” he said with a lightness he did not feel at all. “I thought we could both have a mother and be missing a father and that would be fair.” Not perfect, but fair, with a childish logic entirely centered on the feelings of those he knew and not on the desires of the people whose names he had most often heard in whispers.

It had suited him, selfishly, because he had not had a mother. He’d had ressë  - holding him, singing to him, helping mold clay into little pots until he tired of the art - but she could not cradle his fea as his mother would have.

As his brother had.

As a child he’d been able to picture how his mother could be added into their circle, nothing lost. But a father -

If the king - his father returned, things would change.

He had known, even then, it was a dangerous thing to say.

"And so perhaps it shall be,” Nerdanel had said. “But it hurts people to speak of it too much, and there is no use worrying over it yet; it shall yet be many long years until anything is decided.”

“I thought it would take longer,” he said, at last setting down the much abused papers with far too much force. He knew it must sound abrupt to Maitimo; he didn’t care. “So many others take longer.”

He looked at Maitimo, finally, and saw just what he should have expected; Maitimo leaning against the bar set across the door, unfairly tall and uncommonly worried, and trying with his slumped posture against the wood to deny both.

Still listening. Always listening until he knew just what word to use to strike.

“I thought I would have a chance to - “ He made a confused, too violent gesture, but Maitimo would know what he meant. He always knew what he meant.

He had grown up knowing he had killed his mother, but that it had not been his fault. Nerdanel had made sure he knew it was not his fault. How could you blame a baby for anything?

But it was his fault, even though he had not killed her. It was his fault because he would be dangerous to Melkor, and Melkor knew it.

He had thought he would have a chance to prove that danger. That Melkor had been right to fear him.

He had thought that when she emerged, he could stand before her and say, I avenged you, Amil. I was worth it.

“I know,” Maitimo said because he could keep no secrets from Maitimo, not really. “Maybe this way’s better. If she’s anything like the rest of us, she won’t just want to have heard you’ve done it; she’ll want to help.”

The words had just a hint of warning to them.

You promised, Nolo. Don’t you dare go running off alone. We do it together, or not at all.

It was how they did everything, of course. The only way. So he let out the rest of his tension with a long breath and bumped Maitimo’s shoulder in apology on his way to the barred door.

“Ready?” Maitimo murmured. 

By the time they slipped back to the rush of the corridor, both their faces were bright and pleased with the news of the royal couple’s return once more.

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When was the last time someone mistook Elrond for Elros? People probably did during his visits to Númenor while the latter yet lived -- but even in Lindon, someone must have mistakenly said the wrong name by accident. It must have still happened sometimes after the other's death?

I like to think (read: I like to torment Elrond) that there was an elf who left to explore Eriador around S.A. 1, never really understood about Númenor and the choice of the Peredhil, and returned to Lindon five hundred years later. Tar-Amandil was King in Westernesse.

It would probably be the last time someone called Elrond Elros as a serious mistake.

I like that headcanon!

Another possibility - depending on your headcanons re: Maglor (does Elrond ever see him again? What mental state is he in if Elrond does?); it could be possible for someone to seriously make that mistake as late as the early Fourth Age if Elrond tracks Maglor down right before he sails.

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I have a handful of aus that involve bridge four becoming either briefly or unshakably convinced that kaladin is actually a herald (either one who lost his memory, or secretly, as a test for the lighteyes (they're not doing well)). Actually there's probably at least one guy in canon in WOK who has this as his only half joking pet theory and a couple others who are willing to hear him out for laughs. When the Tower run second ideal happens he's just like I TOLD YOU GUYS I STORMING TOLD YOU.

Anyway Bridge Four Shenanigans such as:

  • swearing by different heralds names extra loudly to see if kaladin turns around at one
  • One guy around a corner burning glyph wards dedicated to specific heralds at timed intervals while you watch kaladin carefully to see when he twitches
  • Saying blatantly wrong things about heraldic legends to see if kaladin will correct you. this one actually works sometimes!!

Eventually teft (assuming its not a time travel scenario where teft is also pretty sure radiants shouldn't just know per-recreance things) or kaladin realizes what's going on and exasperatedly explains his Actual Whole Deal. The guys still keep the bit going, 95% because they've learned it really annoys Kaladin, 5% because he might still be a herald that's testing them only he has a new name (its a very multicultural group of men. What's one more name for Jezrian/Yaezir/Yaysi). And if he is a herald testing them then that's a dick move to pull on your own bridge crew so he deserves to be mocked for it.

Bridge Four being Assholes:

  • Very satisfying to angrily shout "Kaladin's hands!" to his face when he assigns you night watch for the second week in a row.
  • Or even just doing a normal herald swear and then immediately following it up with "SORRY CAPTAIN NO OFFENSE." The more panic you fake the better. He sighs so hard, it's great.
  • a genuinely aggrieved "Kaladin's Tits!" got such hard laughs after Lopen stubbed his toe that Moash almost threw up

but unfortunately. as we all know. if you do something ironically enough times. it eventually becomes an actual habit.

And now some of the other bridgecrews have picked up on it and the Captain might actually send the guys who trained them on a one way trip to the tranquiline halls. Skar tripped in front of Prince Adolin and cursed without thinking about it and now the Brightlord is asking. a LOT of questions. Couple of pissed off ardents might get involved. It's messy.

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cosmerelists

Cosmere Characters in the Hunger Games

As requested by @sweetteaanddragons :)

I haven't read or watched Hunger Games, but I've picked up enough through cultural osmosis...I hope. They're kids in an arena fighting to the death, right? And it's a media circus? And there are 12 districts? And they're poor? I think I got it! Anyway, let's stick Cosmere characters in that arena and see how they do!

By the way, for the most part I'm imagining these characters in their own separate hunger games, not all together, just because I didn't want to imagine all of my blorbos killing each other.

1. Kaladin

After a kid who looks just like Tien literally dies in Kaladin's arms (note: all of the kids look exactly like Tien so far as Kaladin is concerned), Kaladin realizes that the Hunger Games are about kids dying, not about kids surviving. He decides that he has to save everyone, and quickly builds a coalition with the other tributes. They all die anyway and Kaladin wins.

He's not happy about it.

2. Shallan

Sadly, Shallan dies while trying unsuccessfully to convince a stick to become fire. Technically, I think this means the stick wins, but they give the award to some kid instead, for some reason.

3. Adolin

Adolin was doing really well until FOUR other tributes all decided to gang up on him. Even then, he fought like an uncaged tiger and very nearly survived. Nearly. (Hey, uh, most characters die in Hunger Games, right?)

4. Vin

Vin slices through the competition like a vengeful god. Emphasis on vengeful. And god. She barely even lets herself get distracted by the weird love triangle between that guy who wants to make the world better and the one who wants to burn it all down. She's too busy, like, killing everyone.

5. Zane

Zane thinks it's pretty swell to be in this killing arena killing people. What isn't swell is that Vin isn't into him, even AFTER their romantic killing spree. What gives? Anyway. Vin kills him.

6. Elend

Elend has a lot of thoughts about the sociological implications of the games. He does not have a lot of thoughts about how to sharpen a stick into a crude spear and ram it through someone's chest. (Is that what happens in the Hunger Games?) Regardless, I don't think he makes it long... Sorry, Elend.

7. Spook

Spook is a wraith. No one ever sees him coming. Or sees him at all. He keeps receiving supplies and weapons from a mysterious benefactor. At one point he starts wearing a handkerchief over his eyes and killing people by sound alone. I don't really see him winning, tbh (sorry Spook), but he is definitely a crowd favorite who makes it super far.

8. Szeth

"To kill innocent children for the amusement of distant viewers blackens my soul with a stain that shall never be removed. Oh, how I hate this. Oh, how I hate this senseless, senseless killing," Szeth thinks to himself as he constructs an unnecessarily elaborate death trap that kills his opponents horribly. "No one suffers like me," Szeth thinks, over all of the screaming.

9. Renarin

Hey remember when Renarin killed a Thunderclast mostly off-screen? Plus he has future sight. If they've got their powers in this game, then Radiant Renarin is probably taking it all. If not, well...let's not go there.

10. Vivenna

After her sister is sent as a tribute in Vivenna's place, Vivenna enters the Hunger Games anyway, determined to somehow put a stop to them. For example, she takes all the food she can find and hides it in one place so that it will be safe for everyone. She figures out how to predict supply drops to ensure that she always gets to them first. While convinced that she is the Hunger Games Breaker, she is actually the season's most notorious villain and eventually everyone bands together to kill her. Sorry, Vivenna.

11. Kelsier

Kelsier wins the hearts of viewers everywhere, mostly due to his determination to keep smiling no matter what horrors he must survive. He's, like, really good at killing people also. The Survivor, people call him. But when he is shockingly cut down and killed, his death galvanizes a rebellion against, uh, President Snow? Is that the big bad? Anyway. There's a religion about him now.

12. Ann

Oh, Ann. So excited to shoot guns. (Do they have guns?) So excited to shoot bows and arrows maybe. But she can't shoot worth a damn. She has a splendid time and hits no one. And, well, she does not win.

13. Cord

Frankly, Cord wants to win and bring glory and money (?) back home to her people, who desperately need it. I'm assuming the districts get stuff if their person wins. Cord is in it to win it. And she's awfully good with that bow and arrow...

14. Lift

Man, I don't want Lift to be in the Hunger Games! Lift thinks killing is lazy and boring! Sure, she'd be great at hiding in trees and getting food, but I definitely do not see Lift actually being able to kill anyone. Is that allowed? Will she be disqualified?

15. Tress

Tress looks at the Death Arena Whose Purpose Is Death and says, "But is anyone gonna Make Friends about it" and doesn't wait for an answer. Somehow, by the end, basically everyone IS friends. Except for that one person who really did want to kill. But she and Tress went off together and only Tress returned. So.

Basically, Tress's influence ruins the Hunger Games that year. Nobody wants the Friendship Games.

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The voyage west at the end of Return of the King is extremely funny to me, because just look at who's on board. You've got:

  • Frodo Baggins, hero of the Shire, in need of healing but also excited to see Valinor and meet the legendary elves who live there, a gentle soul
  • Elrond Halfelven, as kind as a summer, looking forward to peace west of the sea, probably wants to go chill out in a cottage with his wife for the next thousand years

Which seems fine. And then we get to everyone else.

  • Gandalf, cheeky bastard who's gotten so used to being a weird old wizard in Middle-Earth that's he's forgotten what Maia are supposed to act like, will immediately cause problems
  • Bilbo Baggins, noted storyteller, definitely planning to break into Aule's halls to see his dwarf friends, will ask all the elves weird questions and then sing about their lives and deaths in front of them, will immediately cause problems
  • Galadriel, who came to Aman half for Celebrian and Elrond's sake and half to taunt all her cousins about being the only one of them to survive the First Age, enjoys causing problems, will immediately cause many problems

(Also, to be clear, these are not three isolated problem-causers, they absolutely spent the entire trip to Valinor actively planning to give Amanyar society and the Valar an aneurysm.)

I just love the idea of Elrond, now reunited with Celebrian, and Frodo happily having tea with Elwing and Earendil, with nothing to interrupt them but the gentle sounds of the tides.

Meanwhile Galariel, Bilbo, and Gandalf are collectively bullying Mandos into releasing Maglor Feanorian from the halls because:

  • Bilbo wants to read him his translation of the Noldolante, which is written as a cheery Hobbit drinking song
  • Elrond always complained about how Gandalf and Maglor were both insufferably vague about advice and Gandalf needs to make sure he's more infuriating than Maglor as a matter of his wizardly pride
  • He still owes Galadriel money
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A reblog before the boops depart.

Currently Feanor is winning. My theory is that this is because some people are thinking boop (show affection) and some people are thinking boop (poke with a stick) and Feanor is the perfect character to attract both.

. . . and the final results are in! Feanor lost a lot of his early lead, but he did manage to hang on for the victory.

And he got way more votes than Fingolfin, which I imagine would be the real victory for him anyway.

Finwe, on the other hand, has earned the title of "least boopable."

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Canonically, Elured and Elurin are abandoned in the woods by the servants of Celegorm.

So far, there is a definite lead with "depends on whether or not Caranthir and Curufin are dead." Interesting.

Only four hours left! If we discount the "it depends" option, pragmatic saving is winning.

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Canonically, Elured and Elurin are abandoned in the woods by the servants of Celegorm.

So far, there is a definite lead with "depends on whether or not Caranthir and Curufin are dead." Interesting.

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