List of Bruce Wayne's children

[Last edit: 12 November 2023 20:52] (This page on WordPress is more likely to be up-to-date than the Tumblr version.) Bruce Wayne's Children (Biological, adopted, fostered, mentored, etc.) Feel free to mention any I missed or any new ones (though I probably won't reply because Tumblr's design for communication is garbage). Main universe *Note: All of the main universe Batkids served as Robin except for Barbara, Cass, Duke, Harper, & Jarro [and Claire] (Barbara and Jarro did have appearances in honorary Robin uniforms and Duke is Robin in some possible futures / alternate universes; Steph's tenure as Robin was very brief). All of them are still members of the Bat team except for Harper, who retired from vigilantism, and Jarro, who was always affiliated with the Justice League rather than the Bats proper [and Claire, who helped Bruce's enemies and then disappeared]. -Dick Grayson (adopted) He has an older half-sister named Melinda Zucco a.k.a. Melinda Grayson-Lin. (The version of Dick on Earth-3 had a sister named Rachel.) -Barbara Gordon (allied) Depending on whether she's Jim's bio-daughter or adopted daughter / bio-niece, she has an older brother/cousin named James. -Jason Todd (adopted), a.k.a. Sanjay Tawde in the Batman: The Doom That Came to Gotham movie AU -Tim Drake (adopted) -Stephanie Brown (mentored) -Cassandra Cain (adopted), a.k.a. Kai Li Cain in the Batman: The Doom That Came to Gotham movie AU -Damian Wayne a.k.a. Damian al Ghul (sired on Talia al Ghul), a.k.a. Ibn al Xu'ffasch in some universes; Tallant in the Elseworlds story "Batman: Brotherhood of the Bat"; Ian in Ridley Pearson's version of Super Sons He's had multiple clones; one of them was the villainous Heretic, some are specimens the al Ghuls keep in storage for replacement body parts, and others were Damian's affectionate brothers kept in hiding for their own safety. All of Damian's known clones either died in their introductory story arcs or were never decanted. He has a genetic half-brother named Respawn (created using DNA from Talia al Ghul & Slade Wilson / Deathstroke). He has a cousin named Mara al Ghul. -Duke Thomas (mentored and temporarily fostered) -Harper Row (mentored) She has a younger brother named Cullen. -Jarro, created from Starro's DNA and basically adopted (he calls Bruce "Dad") -Mia "Maps" Mizoguchi barged in to be Robin for a hot minute in Batman #119. (She's also apparently Robin in at least one possible future and at least one AU.) She has an older brother named Kyle. -[Claire Clover (mentored) She had a brother named Hank. I can't find a reference to her age when Bruce met her, and now it looks like Tom King made her evil? So I don't know whether to add her to the list for real or not, but I'll keep this as a placeholder for the time being.] Possible futures and alternate universes -Athanasia al Ghul (Bruce's daughter with Talia al Ghul in the "Injustice" AU) -Bruce Wayne Jr. (Bruce's son with Kathy Kane / Batwoman in various AUs) -Helena Wayne (Bruce's daughter with Selina Kyle / Catwoman on Earth 2 and others; she eventually becomes Huntress, though in some universes, she starts out as Robin first; on Earth 2, she ultimately becomes Batman, with John Grayson [see below] as her Robin and Dick Grayson as Oracle) -Kull (Bruce's daughter with Diana / Wonder Woman on a Dark Multiverse world in the "Dark Nights: Death Metal" event) She has a half-sister named Lara Kent in "The Dark Knight Returns" possible future, a half-brother named Jonathan Kent in both "The Dark Knight Returns" possible future and the "Kingdom Come" AU, and a half-brother named Hunter Prince in a possible future depicted in Rebirth Justice League's "Legacy" story arc. -Saif, Taj, & Janan al Ghul (Bruce's sons and daughter with Talia al Ghul on a Dark Multiverse world in Batman/Superman: Authority Special) -Terry & Matt McGinnis ("Batman Beyond" possible future; Bruce's biological sons with Mary McGinnis via sci-fi weirdness; Terry succeeded Bruce as Batman and Matt very briefly acted as Robin) -Bruce Wayne Jr., Tivali Wayne, & Nyesha Burroughs Wayne (Bruce's bio-son, bio-daughter, & adopted daughter with Selina Kyle / Catwoman in a dream / lost future in the Batman '89 AU) -[Your Mileage May Vary on whether or not this counts, but Barbara miscarried Bruce's child in the "Batman Beyond" possible future. I don't know why the DCAU Bruce/Barbara ship keeps getting greenlit when it's so inappropriate in that AU's context and fans hate it. -.-] -Aion (pseudonym of Bruce's son with Selina Kyle / Catwoman; he's a hallucination that the Damian of the main universe had in Batman: Prelude to the Wedding: Robin vs. Ra's al Ghul, featuring the "Batman in Bethlehem" [Batman #666] Bad Future) -Kiki Wayne (Bruce's daughter with a woman named Helen in a temporary world Bat-Mite created in the Batman: The Brave and the Bold TV show) -Alina Shelley (Batman: The Dark Prince Charming AU ambiguous ending; either she's Bruce's biological daughter with Mariah Shelley and Bruce took Alina into his household when he learned of her existence, or alternatively, Alina is Joker's bio-daughter whom Bruce adopted. If Alina is Joker's daughter, then she possibly has an older half-brother in the main universe, a half-sister named Lucy Quinzel in the "Injustice" AU, half-siblings Jackie & Bryce Napier in the "Batman: White Knight" AU, and possibly at least one half-sibling in the "Batman Beyond" possible future.) -Lance Bruner (adopted and killed in a single storyline, The Brave and the Bold #83; Earth-One) -Turner Hayes (Bruce's adopted son in the Gotham Knights TV show AU) -Tim Drake, DC Animated Universe version (different personality/backstory); he basically had Jason's backstory before Bruce took him in and made him Robin. He has Jason's personality and a version of his fate, too; I think he originated as a Jason/Tim mashup, but Jason Todd was later introduced in the DCAU as a distinct character. -[Timothy S. Drake, Titans version (different appearance / backstory / personality / middle name) I haven't finished watching season 3, but I've seen enough to know that he's basically an original character who just happens to share Tim's name. I still don't know whether he becomes Robin or gets to even meet Bruce.] -Jackie & Bryce Napier (Harley Quinn's twin daughter and son in the "Batman: White Knight" AU; Bruce is basically their godfather and later becomes their stepfather) -Kal-El (In the Batman: Last Knight on Earth AU, clone-Bruce adopted baby Kal from yet another AU) -Brane a.k.a. Bruce Wayne (Bruce's descendant; Batman in the year 3000, a possible future depicted in Batman #26) His Robin is a boy named Ricky. It's possible that the Batman of the year 3051, Brane Taylor, is Brane I's descendant. Brane Taylor's nephew is Robin (real name unknown). *Note to self, look up Batman #67 and Detective Comics #216 for Brane Taylor if DCUI ever deigns to post them. -Brenna Wayne (Bruce's descendant; Batwoman in the "Batman: Dark Knight Dynasty" AU) She had a brother named James. Her Robin is a chimpanzee named Rodney who has human-level intelligence and speaks fluent English. -Bron Wayn E7705 (Bruce's descendant; Batman in a possible future of Earth-One depicted in World's Finest #166) -[According to the wiki, M. Wayne & James Gordon-Wayne are more of Bruce's 30th century possible future descendants, but I couldn't find them even though I skimmed the cited comics (Legion of Super-Heroes #15 and Legion of Super-Heroes Annual. I didn't have access to The Brave and the Bold #179).] -Tina Sung (Bruce's descendant and successor in the "Justice League 3000" possible future) -Tom Wayne (Bruce's descendant; Robin in the "Robin 3000" possible future) -Tomas Wayne (Bruce's descendant; leader of a group of Batmen in a possible future of Earth-One, depicted in Detective Comics #376) -Carrie Kelley (Bruce took her under his wing and made her Robin in "The Dark Knight Returns" possible future) -Carrie Kelley, Gotham Knights version (different personality/appearance/backstory); she routinely sneaked out of her home to serve as Bruce's Robin. -Rui Aramiya (Bruce took him under his wing in the Batman and the Justice League AU) -Enoch & Roger Jr. Birnam (The Brave and the Bold #98, I assume Earth-One; Batman became Enoch's godfather after Roger Sr.'s death, only to discover that Enoch and his mother were evil witches who led a satanist cult; Batman eventually figured out that Enoch had an innately good secret twin, Roger Jr., who was kept locked up except when being used as Enoch's body double; after Enoch and his mother fell to their deaths, causing the dissolution of the cult, Batman kept Roger Jr. as his godson) -Barbara Wilson (Alfred's niece in the Batman and Robin (1997) movie AU; she joined Bruce's household as Batgirl) -[If Lincoln March in the Gotham Knights show is Bruce's brother, that would make his son, Brody, Bruce's nephew. (But that was never confirmed either way and now the show's been canceled, so I guess we'll never know....)] -Drake Winston (Bruce's ally, Robin, in the Batman '89 AU) His older sister is married and has three adopted children, including Nyesha Burroughs. -[Nissa is Batgirl in the "Batman Beyond" possible future, though it looks like she interacts with Barbara rather than Bruce. Batman Beyond Unlimited #18] -[Robin the Toy Wonder is an android Robin in the "DC One Million" possible future. Your Mileage May Vary on whether an android counts as a Batkid.] -[I don't think Robin John Blake from the Nolan movies counts, but he is that AU's super-vague nod to Robin, so I'll note him here.] -[Duela Doe a.k.a. Duela Dent in the Gotham Knights show doesn't really count, but I'll note her because she's allied and romantically involved with Bruce's son, Turner, and also because the rest of her teammates are all on this list.] -[Cassandra Cain, Birds of Prey and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn version (different personality/backstory); this version of Cass doesn't count because she doesn't really interact with Bruce, but I'm noting her because she's a Batkid in the main universe and most other AUs even though she's not a Batkid in this one.] ~~~~~~~~ You know what, while I'm at it, I'll use this post for other Batfam lists as well. Bruce Wayne's Grandchildren Dick Grayson's kids: -Bruce & James (Dick's twin sons in a possible future of Earth-One, as depicted in Batman #300) -Bryce (Dick's daughter with Barbara in the Batman: Last Knight on Earth AU) -Elainna (Dick's daughter with an unknown dead mother who's not Barbara in the "Batman Beyond" possible future; she becomes Batwoman) -Jake (Dick's son with Koriand'r in the Nightwing: The New Order AU) When Jake grows up, he has a son named Richard. -Jimmy (Dick's son with Barbara in the "Batman: White Knight" AU) -John (Dick's son with Barbara on Earth 2; he eventually becomes Robin to Helena Wayne's Batman) -Mar'i (Dick's daughter with Koriand'r in the "Kingdom Come" AU) -[In the Titans TV show AU, Dick has a vision at one point and sees a young girl, his daughter. I haven't finished watching the show, so I don't yet know if any other details will be specified such as her name, mother, whether she's Dick's bio- or adopted child, how certain her existence will be, or whether she's a new character or already on this list (is she meant to be Mar'i??).] -Thomas Grayson (the Red Hood in a Bad Future depicted in "Justice League: Generation Lost") is presumably one of Dick's descendants -Dennis Washburn (Dick's ex-stepson with Emily Washburn in Nightwing Annual (1997)) Tim Drake's kids: -Two unnamed children in the "Batman Beyond" possible future -Matt Drake, plus an unnamed daughter and another son (Nightwing: The New Order AU) Tim likely named his daughter Janet, judging by Bruce's dream of a possible future in the "Dark Nights: Metal" event. -Damian had an unnamed son and daughter with Mar'i in the "Kingdom Come" AU. [-Adventures of the Super Sons depicts a possible future where an elderly Jon & Damian are telling their past adventures to a young boy and girl with what appear to be Kryptonian powers, but the children's parentage is unspecified. I don't think they're Damian's descendants, but I'm going to leave this as a placeholder for now just so that I don't forget about them.] -Stephanie had a baby girl (fathered by a boy named Dean) whom she gave up for adoption. -Jason at one point had a young sidekick named Sasha, codenamed Scarlet. -In the "Batman: White Knight" AU, an adult Jason comes across a girl named Gan who's acting as an amateur Robin; he takes her under his wing and starts to train her in a more official capacity. Gan has a younger brother named(?) Twip. Bat Animals -Ace the dog (Bruce's) -Elinore & Zitka the elephants (Dick's) -Haley a.k.a. Bitewing the dog (Dick's) -Sparky the dog (Jason's) -Dog the dog (Jason's) Damian Wayne's animals: (Pets & companions) -Titus the dog -Alfred the cat -Bat-Cow the cow -Goliath the dragon-bat (Friends) -Spotty the rat (New 52 Batman & Robin) -Unnamed Eastern dragon (Rebirth Nightwing #42) (Alternate universes) -Jerry the turkey (Li'l Gotham) -Monkichi the monkey (Batman Ninja) -Taco the dog (Ridley Pearson's version of Super Sons) *Murder King the dog (Batman: Wayne Family Adventures) -Dribble the dog (Batman & Robin & Howard) [*I'm starting to think that Murder King was an "official mistake" - he only appeared in a single comic that was not by the main series writer, he's never been seen or mentioned since then, and other than in that one comic, the series always shows Titus as Damian's dog.] Associated animals: -Isis the cat (Selina's) -Krypto the Kryptonian dog (Kent family's) -Unnamed female hyena Bruce gave Harley Quinn in the "Batman: White Knight" AU Teen Titans and/or Young Justice *This is not a masterlist (that can be found on Wikipedia here). Code: Core member Important non-core member [Not a true Titan, but has reason to be listed] Temporary and/or secondary member (I acknowledge them as canon, but not for my own headcanon) I need to read more about them before I make a decision? Not listed: I currently have no interest in the character Dick's team: -Wally -Donna -Garth -Raven -Kori -Victor -Garfield -Roy -[Tara/Terra] -(Lilith) -(Mal) -(Karen) -(Joseph/Jericho) -(Hank & Don?) -(John Gnaark?) -(Más y Menos) -([Natasha/Steel]) -[Kyle Rayner? I'm not sure he counts as a Titan.] Added from the Young Justice cartoon: -Kaldur -Artemis Crock -(Zatanna) -(Barbara) -(Tula) -Jaime -(La'gaan / Lagoon Boy) -Stephanie -Brion -Halo -Forager Tim's team: -Kon/Conner -Bart -Cassie Sandsmark -M'gann -Rose/Ravager -(Eddie) -(Cissie/Arrowette) -(Leonid / Red Star?) -(Zachary?) -(Mia?) Added from New 52: -Miguel -Kiran/Solstice (she was technically also pre-Flashpoint, but not a core member of that team) -(Tanya / Power Girl) -Celine/Skitter -Danny the Street Added from Brian Michael Bendis's Young Justice series: -Jinny Hex -Amethyst -Keli Quintela / Teen Lantern -Naomi McDuffie Damian's team: -Wallace -[Jon] -Jackson/Aqualad -Emiko -Djinn -Crush -Billy/Roundhouse Misc.: -Wendy & Marvin -Jayna & Zan (Wonder Twins)

Things I Liked About "HTTYD: The Hidden World"

[*Warning for major spoilers*]

Don't get me wrong, How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World ABSOLUTELY SUCKED. It had fantastic animation, music, etc., but the script was so horrendously bad that it wrecked the movie and even put a sour taste in my mouth regarding the franchise as a whole, which I had adored. I attempted to write a fix-it fic, though the movie sucked so bad that a lot of it was just unfixable.

(To clarify for people who don't already know me, I PLATONICALLY ship the heck out of Hiccup & Toothless. I ship Hiccup/Astrid romantically, and I would have been curious to see Toothless get a mate if she hadn't been a Mary Sue, but the relationship between Hiccup & Toothless is by far the one I'm most interested in.)

Anyway, out of the poop fest that was HTTYD3, here are the eight parts of the movie that I genuinely liked (in chronological order):

1. Toothless having lived among humans for so long that he thinks Hiccup's arm-flapping suggestion means to literally flap his forelegs rather than his wings. XD

2. Ruffnut being The Most Annoying Prisoner Ever is the only scene in The Hidden World that still makes me laugh, even several re-watches later.

3. SQUIRT! SQUIIIIRRRTTT!!! (He doesn't have a name in canon, but I named him in one of my fics [A Small Addition to Berk’s Flock, found in my story collection “The Dragon Queen of Berk”], and I love him.) He made it to freedom, he's safe! I'd been hoping he'd get a much larger role in HTTYD3, he could have been an extremely useful and interesting character, but at least we got thrown this two-second bone.

4. Instead of wasting their time with a Part 3 that was unnecessary and incredibly disappointing, the filmmakers should have instead made an entire movie about Stoick the Vast raising his baby son.

5. Compared to how absolutely epic both the climaxes of the previous movies were, the HTTYD3 climax really paled in comparison. It would have worked for the TV show, but it definitely didn't measure up to its film predecessors. That being said, it was rather moving, mostly because of the music and the way it was shot.

6. This one tiny moment is actually my top favorite part of the movie. Just...that pure love in Hiccup's face and voice, and how gentle and affectionate his touch is, he and Toothless battered literally into the ground but not defeated.... It was so sweet and beautiful, one of the very, very few moments in this film where they're fully in-character together.

7. The separation was dumb; I sighed a lot the second time I saw it in theaters, and now I skip straight through it every time it comes up on the DVD. However, I did like this one isolated moment, where Toothless demonstrates that he's lived so long among humans that even their body language ("wrapping forelegs around upper body = affection") has rubbed off on him. Unlike some other moments in this same film, where animals are awkwardly anthropomorphized, this instance works much better as an animal exhibiting learned behavior to express his feelings to his beloved in Hiccup's own "language."

8. I really hated the epilogue, but amidst all the forced, heavy-handed parallels and the "apparently the screenwriter thinks Toothless is so stupid that he'd mistake his completely non-threatening soulmate for an enemy even though he's super-close in good lighting with Hiccup's scent shoved in his face" crap (I've seen the excuses and justifications, but none of them are convincing), it was nice to see a small portion of the reunion we deserved.

Everything else regarding the story and characterizations in this film either had ruined potential or outright sucked. This movie was a kick in the face to fans of Hiccup & Toothless.

Someone please help these ridiculous children

Three episodes later:

WHAT EVEN IS THIS SHOW

"Just take the blanket with you."

As a person with OCD, what I love about the way Shiro treats Slav is how well Shiro navigates the fine line between keeping his priorities straight and respecting what Slav has to deal with.

Slav can't help his anxieties and ridiculous-seeming coping mechanisms, but he is unnecessarily obnoxious about them, and the situation is extremely dangerous and time-sensitive.

Under the circumstances, Shiro would be expected to just toss Slav over his shoulder and charge ahead to complete the mission, but he showed an incredible amount of patience and tried to accommodate Slav as best he could, never once mocking or belittling him. (I think he can be forgiven some frustrated incredulity, given the urgent circumstances.)

Even when Shiro finally did lose his last scrap of patience, he still struck me as being strangely respectful despite his exasperation.

"We're traveling by teludav. So just count your hair follicles or fluff a pillow, or whatever you need to do to make sure we survive the wormhole trip in this reality!"

The way I interpreted that was Shiro basically saying, "I have a responsibility to keep my kids people safe and complete this extremely important mission. Within those limits, I am totally fine with you doing whatever you need to do so that you feel as safe as you can in this situation, which is probably even more stressful for you than it is for the rest of us." There's no real judgment, just prioritizing what's truly important while delineating a space where Slav can cope with his anxiety.

 Shiro also seems to be keeping the possibility open that all of Slav's fretting about alternate realities might actually be legit. XD Even though he himself probably doesn't believe it, he still gives Slav the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically writing him off as crazy.

 I love Shiro. Kudos to the people who wrote his lines in these episodes.

Support public libraries!!

I am heartsick from seeing so many thousands of books being thrown in the trash, week after week after week with no end in sight. Please support your public library! It is super-easy: all you have to do is use the library. The following is a list of things you can do at the library, and all of it helps both you and the library, so win-win! Not all libraries offer all of these services, but if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask a librarian or to check the library's Web site! *Walk through the front door. (Seriously - every person who enters the building adds to a statistic that tells the people in charge that the library is being utilized and should be given resources accordingly.) *Use their free Wi-Fi or sign up to use a public computer. *Check out movies, TV shows, and documentaries (and anime!). (The library has a lot more than just books! You can check out all sorts of things.) -You can order items from other branches if the branch you visit doesn't have what you're looking for. The items will be sent to whichever branch you specify and reserved for a little while under your name so that you can pick them up and check them out at your convenience. -There's also a service that does the same thing, except you can order items from other cities if your local library doesn't have what you're looking for. *Check out music CDs - rock, country, R&B, classical, movie soundtracks, folk, you name it! *Check out laptops or tablets. *Use their job center, which can offer free help with résumés and such. *Attend free classes at their adult education center. *Use their copier, scanner, or fax machine (there's usually a charge for this, but most of the other library services are free). *Check out e-books or vinyl LPs. *Check out audiobooks. These are great for people who don't have time to sit down and read a book. You can listen to audiobooks while driving, exercising, or doing housework. *Check out books, DVDs, and music in other languages, such as Spanish. *Read the newspapers and magazines. (You can check out older magazines just like you would books.) *Attend library-sponsored or -hosted programs and events, such as story time for children, activities for teens, art shows and concerts, book clubs, etc. *Rent the event room for your own events, meetings, etc. *Buy used books, movies, etc. for super-cheap prices at the library's book sales. (Some of these items were donated for this purpose. Other items were withdrawn from the library's collection because they weren't getting checked out, and this is their last chance to be useful to someone - if they don't sell, they eventually get thrown away.) *Donate books, movies, etc. to be sold in library book sales. *And, of course, check out books. Books get withdrawn when they haven't been checked out in a while. Some of these books go to the book sales, but others...sometimes a lot of others...go straight into the garbage. Check out books that you have any interest in whatsoever, even if you don't get a chance to finish reading them. Check out books you love that you want to remain on the shelves for new readers to find. In addition to fiction (including comic books and manga!), there is fantastic non-fiction on subjects such as: -Cookbooks -Car repair manuals -Pregnancy and child-rearing -Movies (as in, books about movies or TV shows) -Job hunting or career-improving -Crafts (including crochet, knitting, etc.) -Political and economic commentary -Memoirs (in addition to biographies of famous historical figures, there are many fascinating books written by contemporary people with vastly different life experiences) -Fashion, makeup, hairstyling, etc. -Academic subjects like math and foreign languages -Physical and mental illnesses -Dating and marriage -Allllllll sorts of books about animals -Religious studies -Gender issues -Race issues -Home decor -Various science topics like astronomy, geology, etc. -Architecture -All kinds of art -Poetry *And more! Check your library's Web site or ask a librarian about any other services and programs they might offer, such as free help preparing tax returns or free meals for children during summer vacation. Additional ways you can support the library: *Volunteer. (It'll look good on your résumé or college application, too.) *Donate money. (Make sure it goes straight to the library rather than just the city in general.) Public libraries are super-important and super-helpful community resources! There is so much cool stuff to do there, everything from entertainment to self-education to enrichment. The public library is here for you, so make use of it! Prove to the people in charge that the library is valued and deserves more resources to provide even more cool stuff to patrons.

Be proud of your work

You are a good artist. Writing, drawing, making music - whatever sort of art it is you do, you are good at it. Don't put yourself down and sell yourself short. Don't insult the people who see value in your work. Don't discourage the younger artists who look up to you as a role model. Don't ignore what you've accomplished in order to focus on what you didn't. Criticism is not condemnation for failure; it is inspiration for improvement. Your art is already beautiful. It will keep getting more and more beautiful. Take pride in your work and your growth, and be kind to the older art that helped you get to where you are today.

To all the people who keep telling me that Hiccup is not a delicate flower wisp:

Look at that boy, he is airborne.

Behold Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III, my delicate little flower child:

And it's not just in the first movie.

Granted, 20-year-old Hiccup is stronger than he was five years before, and he's definitely taller, but he's still not a hot manly man. He still often gets manhandled and protected and held and treated roughly.

 Is Hiccup a physically strong person? No, he's not, especially compared to all the dragons and superhuman Vikings he's surrounded by.

  Is Hiccup a strong person in every other way? Yes, of course he is.

In Hiccup's finest moments, his strength is either non-violent, or involves borrowing the strength of other people whose loyalty he earned with respect and kindness.

 I think it's FANTASTIC when a man manages to still be masculine despite having traditionally feminine traits or roles, and vice versa. I think that Hiccup can be a physical weakling and a good man at the same time.

  Hiccup is a manly wisp of a flower. He's a kitten leading a troop of gorillas. He proves that strength of heart is not something to scoff at.

Just thought it was interesting. *still hoping for canon Galra-Keith eventually X'D*