Controversial opinion, but can we, as a fandom, stop referring to Loki as Laufeyson

And that is the best take I've seen on this topic and one that I completely agree with. I hope you don't mind me reblogging your tags @semisolidvoid

I completely and utterly disagree.

By doing that, we're not any better than Odin, or the Loki show who forgot Loki's Jotnar heritage.

It is part of him. A part unexplored, but so very interesting.

A part Kate Herron, Michael Waldron & Eric Martin tried to erase... because let's face it, they don't care about Loki... ^^'

Look at this concept art for Utgard. LOOK AT IT. Does it look like the work of barbarians or monsters like Odin would have Loki (and Thor, and the others) believe? HELL NO.

Jotnars had most likely a great civilization. One Loki had THE RIGHT to know about... But Odin robbed him of that.

As far as I am concerned, I am still certain Laufey did not abandon Loki. Odin supposedly found him in a temple? WHAT WERE YOU DOING IN A TEMPLE, GLAD OF WAR??? That's a sacred place were civilians take refuge and the enemy is not supposed to set foot in ^^'

Plus there was the What if story...

AND WE KNOW ODIN AND HIS LIES.

Laufey probably thought that if he let Loki believe he was pure evil and kill him, Odin would reward him and potentially give him the throne.... (oh my sweet summer child ^^')

But even if Laufey had been truly evil and abandoned him (pretty sure he did not, but let's imagine), that does not mean all Jotuns are evil, like Odin pretends they are.

That does not mean Loki should not embrace his Jotun roots.

That does not mean he should not go to Jotunheim and try to be a better king that both his fathers - adoptive and birthfather- were.

Plus, the Laufeyson name is still the closest thing we'll get to his mythology name, Laufeyjarson ^^'

STILL BETTER THAN ODINSON.

Just because it's a part of him, that doesn't automatically mean he identifies with it. No one is denying his heritage, but rather respecting his own choice not to identify as such.

I feel like insisting upon calling him a name he so clearly rejects and one that has been weaponised against him as the means of disownment, would be taking away his agency..again.

if I chose not to use my father's last name because he wasn't a part of my life, am I erasing part of my identity or am I making a personal choice that that part of my identity is either a) not particularly relevant to me or b) a painful part of my history that I haven't worked through and therefore don't want to be casually associated with? what matters most here isn't that Loki's birth father is a part of his history, nor what the truth about that history may or may not be (which, as always when Odin is the one telling the story, is up in the air). it's nothing to do with passing judgment on Laufey and declaring him, let alone all Jötnar, as a villain; nor is it in any way absolving Odin of his crimes. what's most relevant (and I would even argue is the only thing that's relevant to this debate) is that Loki would not be comfortable calling himself by that name—nor with being casually called that by other people. we know he wouldn't be, because at least to date, he's specifically chosen not to identify that way. the last two times (three, if we count IW, but ehhh let's not) Loki introduced himself to someone, it was specifically not by invoking Laufey's name. that's not irrelevant. it's a highly intentional choice he's made for himself—as someone of Loki's status would typically introduce themselves by their patronymic, not simply by their realm of origin. we see this when Thor introduces himself to Laufey as Thor Odinson on Jötunheim, and we can safely extrapolate that the same would be applicable for Loki.

and in fact, to illustrate this discomfort with Loki's birth name even further, we can turn to the prelude comic for The Dark World, which is among the comics that are technically canon to the MCU. Among its pages, we see Odin refer to Loki as Laufeyson specifically for the purpose of hurting him. if you want to thumb your nose at Odin, following his lead may not be the best way to do so. just a thought.

but the real divide here seems to be that @jonquilclegane is hung up on what they believe *should* have happened in canon, whereas the rest of us here (at least those who are anti-Laufeyson, so to speak) are focused on what *is* canon. would it be nice if Loki eventually learned to embrace his Jötun heritage? of course it would be. but that's not where he's at. and to be quite frank, from my POV, to attempt to force it upon him because we think that's what's best for him would make us no less cruel or manipulative than Odin and Frigga. as @abby118 said, it's taking away his agency... again. I rather think he's had enough of that from people who claim to love him.

nikko's tags...

my 5c:

really i think the point here is, what does LOKI introduce himself as? after being made aware of his parentage?

LOKI of asgard. LOKI.

the only time he calls himself "LOKI of jotunheim" even, was when he was attempting to create a deception for the svartalfar and have them believe he was not an ally of thor and asgard.

and i honestly, think that is the only thing that matters. it's not important what anyone else believes might be best for him ultimately. and it has nothing to do with any kind of judgement on the jotnar - positive, neutral, or negative. it's totally irrelevant.

the fact is, he doesn't choose to title himself with his sire's name. so unless and until he does, i wouldn't feel at all comfortable deciding that for him. it's not my place. why? because it's not my name.

far too many people try to tell others what they ought to be doing, rather than listening to what they need and want.

personally? i don't take my paternal surname as my own. i never have. even though i'm on good terms for many years now with my formerly estranged father and his family; it wasn't part of me growing up, so i don't feel like it's part of me now that i'm an adult.

so maybe that's why it's easy for me to understand LOKI now. and especially given that he's in no way resolved all or possibly any of his thoughts and emotions connected to his heritage. i at least, knew who my father was all along. he didn't.

and if he doesn't choose to officially embrace that connection? well that's his right. and none of our fucking business, really.

@hechizero-emplumado tags pass peer review

😭 isnt even an emoji anymore its like a brother to me

Tom Hiddleston's impressions are back!! Loki dog's everywhere!!!

Here's the thing I keep trying to articulate and possibly failing: I don't actually mind characters who are terrible people. I have enjoyed many. What I mind is characters who are terrible people while the narrative keeps trying to say that they are wonderful, often contradicting what the narrative shows us, with no self awareness

hashtag mobius and the tva.

if that was framed properly and (and this is a BIG 'and') LOKI was fully recognisable as his avengers 2012 self, that could have been quite the story, even if not what we were promised at the beginning.

a nice side quest for LOKI of asgard on his way to resolving his personal trauma and family conflicts

but instead... this is the worst timeline. 😒

He’s so disappointed his hands are soft

You know what they say about men with large hands….

"You guys just hate because you want every marvel movie to be Endgame, movies cant all be that good"

Fool,

I hated Endgame too

I want Marvel movies to be as good as the first "Avengers" movie, but alas, they've almost universally sucked since 2016.

Thor (2011) → Thor: The Dark World (2013)

what self indulgent loki hcs do you guys have? these could be literally any sort of self indulgent. whether that’s you projecting onto him, x reader type of hcs, or anything in between. i’d like to know it all!!

I am about to commit a HUGE fandom sin and say that...I don't think canon Loki would show his "real" self as readily and frequently as he does in fanfic. As in, I have very rarely read a scene (love scene or otherwise) where he reveals his Jotunn side that I personally feel was done well or in character.

It's like...for much of my life I generally kept my legs covered as much as possible because I don't really like my legs. It took a lot for me to feel ok with another person seeing them in all their uh glory and it took a bit more for me to feel ok-ish floating around a holiday destination in a bikini/swim suit or when I go out running in warmer weather and have to wear VERY above knee shorts.

My legs are not at all on anywhere near the same level as the sort of self-loathing and internalised racism Loki suffers. I don't think he's going to drop the glamour even to "scare" his would-be-lover, I think he will avoid it as much as possible no matter how much pleading you make that he's beautiful. Do I wish the films (and series...) had spent more time on exploring that side of him? Definitely. But I don't think "Loki accepts his natural form via romantic love" is the magic bullet a lot of ficcers want it to be.

So my hc is that Loki will rarely if ever show his Jotunn form by choice. Unfortunately the later films/series back me up but I don't think those writers did it on purpose, I think after The Avengers they kinda forgot he's not Asgardian (apart from briefly in that awful Infinity War scene.)

I think I agree with this. (Which is why my fics don't have him willingly turning blue for his lover. It's always a 'situation' where he's forced by circumstances, but I digress lol.)

Loki's Jotun identity was just left hanging after Thor 1, especially his non acceptance of his true form. I kind of hated the way it was brushed aside (not to mention how it was mocked in Ragnarok through that play). He certainly wouldn't joke about it, let alone tell everyone and their mom about it. Or show his Jotun form that easily.

i so agree with all of this. i avoid reading fics about loki’s heritage, because… no one really gets it right. i’m very picky about loki fics in general, but ESPECIALLY fics where his heritage is discussed. but some do it really well! shit, there’s not much to work with in canon anyway so i deeply respect and appreciate those who are able to write about it, and make it feel… real, if that makes sense.

loki is very closed off, and afraid to be vulnerable. i really do not like fics where he’s vulnerable right off the bat. i don’t feel like that’s him at all, and i know as someone who relates to him… that’s just not how it works! but once again, i’ve seen takes on his vulnerability/fear of opening up that were really good! of course we had bad fics before the series, but… the effect the series had on the fandom’s perception of loki’s character just made it so much worse.

Any time I see someone say "Marvel knew what they were doing when they cast Tom Hiddleston" I feel a bit like...they didn't though? I think you're projecting some 4D chess grandmaster stuff onto Marvel Studios that doesn't really exist.

Tom was cast via Kenneth Branagh and yes it was PHENOMENAL casting but let's not pretend like Marvel Studios didn't spend the next near-decade and a half deleting Loki's scenes, killing him then instantly reviving him, deleting yet more of his scenes, killing him again, retconning killing him, sticking him off-screen for almost half a decade, removing yet another scene and not even compensating his fans with a DVD extra, killing him again, then suddenly remembering he's popular (again) and coming up with something to use a now-for-real-dead character as the lead but it wasn't exactly the same character (just another version of him) and now they're apparently done with him again when it's pretty obvious he'll be wheeled out of that tree at some point.

I love Loki. I love Tom's portrayal of Loki but the only people who have consistently genuinely seemed to care about the character are the fans. Because we've been given nothing but crumbs by Marvel and yet produce all this beautiful fan art, fan fic and meta. Marvel have just kinda stumbled around Loki like some perpetually confused pigeon in a hall of mirrors that keeps crashing into its own reflection shrugging "huh...what IS this? Ooh shiny!"

Knew what they were doing? More like lucked out with a very talented and charismatic actor and a dedicated fanbase that formed 2011-12 and is somehow, despite everything still here.

And also somehow still waiting for his Jotun heritage to be addressed. And his time with Thanos and the Black Order. Things I would *actually* have liked to see in a series that was supposedly about *him* and not just using his name.

yes.

yes to everything written here. and honestly... i think tom is only as good as his direction and his script. he seems to be inspired by that synergy when it all works perfectly, and brings some new and unexpected level of absolute mastery to his performance...

but when it doesn't, tom's innate charisma and talent is not enough to save it. exhibit A: ragnarok. exhibit B: that series.

while i'll allow that 2017-2019 LOKI was still semi-recognisable as the original character, semi really isn't good enough when you're talking about the original studio and actor only 3-4 years after his last appearance. a semi-recognisable performance is good enough when you're a cosplayer.

as for the series... absolutely not. the showrunners had no idea who LOKI was or what he stood for, and tom just... took their lead and played as he was directed.

"but isn't that what an actor is supposed to do?"

well... one could argue that if the integrity of a preexisting character or story is being compromised, perhaps the actor might make a stand. hashtag henry cavill. i just think tom convinced himself somehow that he was doing justice to LOKI with his new "direction" and "giving the fans what they want". but there was a special quality to his interviews and press conferences from 2011-2013, which is significantly absent now. it really feels like he's just going through the motions. fulfilling his contractual obligations. the excitement and spark is mostly gone.

do i know tom personally? of course not. do i have any evidence for my suppositions in that last remark above? well no. i only have my observations, and that is what they suggest, to me.

i'm just heartbroken that now... even moreso than when he was brutally murdered in infinity war... tom's LOKI is truly gone from our screens. because if tom doesn't remember who LOKI is, he can't ever be brought back.

all we have left of him is those first three films, where the magic was created and can never be eclipsed or erased by anything that came after.

2011-2013 LOKI supremacy.

fight me.

@schlotzshewrote's tags:

...and, fanfic. fanart. that's where the real OG LOKI lives now.

honestly at this point i'm just waiting til AI is good enough that we can feed it an OG movie source, and a new fanmade script, and have it make the movies about LOKI that marvel denied us.

and you can fight me on that too.

Any time I see someone say "Marvel knew what they were doing when they cast Tom Hiddleston" I feel a bit like...they didn't though? I think you're projecting some 4D chess grandmaster stuff onto Marvel Studios that doesn't really exist.

Tom was cast via Kenneth Branagh and yes it was PHENOMENAL casting but let's not pretend like Marvel Studios didn't spend the next near-decade and a half deleting Loki's scenes, killing him then instantly reviving him, deleting yet more of his scenes, killing him again, retconning killing him, sticking him off-screen for almost half a decade, removing yet another scene and not even compensating his fans with a DVD extra, killing him again, then suddenly remembering he's popular (again) and coming up with something to use a now-for-real-dead character as the lead but it wasn't exactly the same character (just another version of him) and now they're apparently done with him again when it's pretty obvious he'll be wheeled out of that tree at some point.

I love Loki. I love Tom's portrayal of Loki but the only people who have consistently genuinely seemed to care about the character are the fans. Because we've been given nothing but crumbs by Marvel and yet produce all this beautiful fan art, fan fic and meta. Marvel have just kinda stumbled around Loki like some perpetually confused pigeon in a hall of mirrors that keeps crashing into its own reflection shrugging "huh...what IS this? Ooh shiny!"

Knew what they were doing? More like lucked out with a very talented and charismatic actor and a dedicated fanbase that formed 2011-12 and is somehow, despite everything still here.

And also somehow still waiting for his Jotun heritage to be addressed. And his time with Thanos and the Black Order. Things I would *actually* have liked to see in a series that was supposedly about *him* and not just using his name.

yes.

yes to everything written here. and honestly... i think tom is only as good as his direction and his script. he seems to be inspired by that synergy when it all works perfectly, and brings some new and unexpected level of absolute mastery to his performance...

but when it doesn't, tom's innate charisma and talent is not enough to save it. exhibit A: ragnarok. exhibit B: that series.

while i'll allow that 2017-2019 LOKI was still semi-recognisable as the original character, semi really isn't good enough when you're talking about the original studio and actor only 3-4 years after his last appearance. a semi-recognisable performance is good enough when you're a cosplayer.

as for the series... absolutely not. the showrunners had no idea who LOKI was or what he stood for, and tom just... took their lead and played as he was directed.

"but isn't that what an actor is supposed to do?"

well... one could argue that if the integrity of a preexisting character or story is being compromised, perhaps the actor might make a stand. hashtag henry cavill. i just think tom convinced himself somehow that he was doing justice to LOKI with his new "direction" and "giving the fans what they want". but there was a special quality to his interviews and press conferences from 2011-2013, which is significantly absent now. it really feels like he's just going through the motions. fulfilling his contractual obligations. the excitement and spark is mostly gone.

do i know tom personally? of course not. do i have any evidence for my suppositions in that last remark above? well no. i only have my observations, and that is what they suggest, to me.

i'm just heartbroken that now... even moreso than when he was brutally murdered in infinity war... tom's LOKI is truly gone from our screens. because if tom doesn't remember who LOKI is, he can't ever be brought back.

all we have left of him is those first three films, where the magic was created and can never be eclipsed or erased by anything that came after.

2011-2013 LOKI supremacy.

fight me.

Can we talk about how some Loki fans hate on Loki even more than Loki haters do 😟

👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆

I think this is because they identify with Loki with every fiber of their being, but in the same time they aren’t able to love themselves yet. They hate themselves, they want to hurt themselves. And so they hurt Loki instead.

I understand your point but so far I have experienced the opposite. Whatever they identify themselves with, it’s most likely not Loki, at least not the Loki we know from the MCU. When you talk to them, this Loki feels like a weird mix of the MCU canon and their personal fantasies. I am not implying imagining things about a character is wrong, on the contrary I have quite a few headcanons myself. But it is wrong once you stop seeing the difference between what is real and what you like to think is real, when you ignore solid facts and substitute them with things you imagined. And it gets even worse if you are so convinced your vision of the character is the only correct one that you are reluctant to listen to any arguments, no matter how convincing they are, and start attacking other fans who are simply trying to point out the obvious.

I think I am not wrong if I assume that quite a few of those fans identify not with Loki, but with Thor. It’s the only explanation if you consider what they are accusing Loki of.

Identifying with a character or relating to a character implies that you first of all try your best to understand them, you go real deep analyzing and processing their actions, you pay attention to every little thing you see and hear. How can someone go on about how they love their baby Loki oh so much and at the same time say things that really make you wonder they even saw the movies at all.

Every word

In my experience, it is exactly the people who see themselves in Loki and who have been unable to accept themselves, who defend Loki most vociferously. They love Loki because they themselves feel unloved. They are viciously protective of Loki because no one has protected them. In loving Loki, they can show themselves the kindness and compassion that society, their loved ones and even their own selves have denied them—because they see that Loki has also been denied these things and, removed from their own self-loathing, it is easier to see how unjust this is. I have seen so many fans speak of how they didn’t realise just how badly they’ve been treated and that they deserve better too until they fell in love with Loki. This is why his fanbase is disproportionately made up of marginalised and abused people. It is also why it is that portion of his fanbase—again, at least in my experience—who tend to see him most clearly.

In contrast, those fans who call him a drama queen unironically, who insist he responds to any mild annoyance with violence and betrays people just for fun, do not (again, in my experience) usually relate to Loki on a personal level. They like him because they find him entertaining. They like him as a foil to Thor. They provide the fandom with the “I love Loki, but here’s why he’s actually trash” hot takes, and they usually find Ragnarok’s Thor “more relatable” than in previous films. Like his family, their love for Loki is contigent upon him remaining “in his place”, and should he step out of line, he deserves whatever terrible things happen to him. These fans are, of course, entitled to like Loki for any reason they choose. But they almost invariably misunderstand and simplify him, whether intentionally or not, and do not see themselves reflected in him.

Neither of these generalisations are, of course, exhaustive (because that’s, by definition, how generalisations work). But this is certainly the overall pattern I have personally observed in the Loki fandom.

keeping Nikko’s tags for obvious reasons.

@varangianviper 🫂 #originstory 18 july 2022

In which @nikkoliferous is just basically describing me.

Can we talk about how some Loki fans hate on Loki even more than Loki haters do 😟

👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆

I think this is because they identify with Loki with every fiber of their being, but in the same time they aren’t able to love themselves yet. They hate themselves, they want to hurt themselves. And so they hurt Loki instead.

I understand your point but so far I have experienced the opposite. Whatever they identify themselves with, it’s most likely not Loki, at least not the Loki we know from the MCU. When you talk to them, this Loki feels like a weird mix of the MCU canon and their personal fantasies. I am not implying imagining things about a character is wrong, on the contrary I have quite a few headcanons myself. But it is wrong once you stop seeing the difference between what is real and what you like to think is real, when you ignore solid facts and substitute them with things you imagined. And it gets even worse if you are so convinced your vision of the character is the only correct one that you are reluctant to listen to any arguments, no matter how convincing they are, and start attacking other fans who are simply trying to point out the obvious.

I think I am not wrong if I assume that quite a few of those fans identify not with Loki, but with Thor. It’s the only explanation if you consider what they are accusing Loki of.

Identifying with a character or relating to a character implies that you first of all try your best to understand them, you go real deep analyzing and processing their actions, you pay attention to every little thing you see and hear. How can someone go on about how they love their baby Loki oh so much and at the same time say things that really make you wonder they even saw the movies at all.

Every word

In my experience, it is exactly the people who see themselves in Loki and who have been unable to accept themselves, who defend Loki most vociferously. They love Loki because they themselves feel unloved. They are viciously protective of Loki because no one has protected them. In loving Loki, they can show themselves the kindness and compassion that society, their loved ones and even their own selves have denied them—because they see that Loki has also been denied these things and, removed from their own self-loathing, it is easier to see how unjust this is. I have seen so many fans speak of how they didn’t realise just how badly they’ve been treated and that they deserve better too until they fell in love with Loki. This is why his fanbase is disproportionately made up of marginalised and abused people. It is also why it is that portion of his fanbase—again, at least in my experience—who tend to see him most clearly.

In contrast, those fans who call him a drama queen unironically, who insist he responds to any mild annoyance with violence and betrays people just for fun, do not (again, in my experience) usually relate to Loki on a personal level. They like him because they find him entertaining. They like him as a foil to Thor. They provide the fandom with the “I love Loki, but here’s why he’s actually trash” hot takes, and they usually find Ragnarok’s Thor “more relatable” than in previous films. Like his family, their love for Loki is contigent upon him remaining “in his place”, and should he step out of line, he deserves whatever terrible things happen to him. These fans are, of course, entitled to like Loki for any reason they choose. But they almost invariably misunderstand and simplify him, whether intentionally or not, and do not see themselves reflected in him.

Neither of these generalisations are, of course, exhaustive (because that’s, by definition, how generalisations work). But this is certainly the overall pattern I have personally observed in the Loki fandom.

keeping Nikko’s tags for obvious reasons.

@varangianviper 🫂 #originstory 18 july 2022

thor 1 loki baby you are so special to me <3

comic con loki is iconic

Love him so much 🖤💚

the dynamic of thor 1 really was just scenes of Thor being a dick on earth that then cut away to scenes of Loki on the verge of having a panic attack over his traumatic childhood and desperately trying to salvage his life and please his father, only to cut back to Thor becoming mildly more polite simply so he could get this random womans approval, and they just expected us to go with it and agree that Loki was the villain all along